Some facts for the ecomorons.

[rayke1938]

I have borrowed this post from Ausfish member Aigusto with his permission.

Cheers

Ray.

some easy facts to use if in an polite discussion with an Eco-Moron (hopefully that term will make the next Macquarie dictionary, )

1: On a per capita basis we have by far the largest fishery area of any nation and the second largest shelf area

2: We have the third largest Exclusive Economic Zone in the world

3: But We have the lowest fishery harvest rate at just over 3% of the global average

4: We import 70% of our seafood, this costs us $1.8 billion

5: With the lowest fishing harvest in the world, and a rapidly shrinking industry, we

currently have over one-third of the global MPA area.

6: Planned current additions will mean we will have over half of the global MPAs

7: With the Coral Sea, this will total 2 thirds of global MPAs

8: we have the most costly restrictive management practices of fisheries in the world, ie also the most costly as well.

9: we import from more heavily fished fisheries , every resource we lock up puts pressure on others.

These are from Walter Starck.

10: From me, a fact we cant imperically quantify is that we have the largest percentage of gullible Eco-Morons per capita in the world,

And in case you wonder who Walter Starck is.

Dr. Walter Starck

Walter Starck with Electrolung, Hong Kong 1999

Walter Starck is one of the pioneers in the scientific investigation of coral reefs. He grew up in the Florida Keys and received a PhD in marine science from the University of Miami in 1964. He has over 40 years worldwide experience in reef studies and his work has encompassed the discovery of much of the basic nature of reef biology. In this process over 100 species of fishes, which were new to science, were found as well as numerous, corals, shells, crustaceans and other new discoveries.

In 1958, while still an undergraduate student Dr. Starck began what was to become a 10-year investigation of the fish fauna of Alligator reef in the Florida Keys. As this was one of the first extensive uses of scuba diving for marine biological research it resulted in many new discoveries regarding reef biology. Over 20,000 scientific specimens were collected. This work recorded what is still the greatest number of fishes known from any single locale in the New World. The total was five hundred seventeen species, sixty of these had never before been found in U.S. waters and 19 were previously unknown to science.

In the early 1960’s he began the first extensive exploration of coral reefs at night. His photo story on this work in the January 1964 issue of National Geographic Magazine sparked the beginning of recreational night diving on reefs. In conjunction with this work he was among the first to adapt and use SLR cameras and electronic flash underwater. This in turn enabled the first underwater macro photography.

In 1964 he developed the optical dome port now used universally for wide-angle underwater photography. Using dome ports he was the able to make the first extreme wide angle fisheye and panoramic underwater pictures. In 1966 he used a dome port and fisheye lens to shoot the first extreme-wide (180°) cine underwater.

In 1968 he developed the Electrolung, the first electronically regulated, closed circuit, mixed gas scuba. This was a quantum jump in diving technology and was employed in a variety of advanced military, commercial, and research diving operations in the 1970’s. The U.S. Navy, Israeli Army Commandos, NASA, and the offshore oil industry were among its users. With the Electrolung Dr. Starck began exploring the deep reefs beyond the frontiers of compressed air diving. This was terra incognita where no one had gone before and many exciting new discoveries resulted.

In 1968 he took delivery on El Torito, a purpose built 150 ton research vessel he designed and equipped specifically for coral reef research, exploration, and film work. Its facilities included a lab, library, machine shop, diving chambers, an amphibious ATV, a 2 person enclosed Diver Transport Vehicle, and an amphibious ultralight aircraft of advanced design which he built himself . With this vessel he conducted extensive reef work for the next 20 years ranging from the Caribbean to the South Pacific.

Dr. Starck has participated in numerous other marine biological expeditions around the world including the Bahamas, the Caribbean, the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean and the Eastern and Western tropical Pacific. Since 1978 his home has been in the far north of Queensland in Australia. From here he carried out ten years of work on the Great Barrier Reef.

In addition to his extensive coral reef investigations Dr. Starck has also conducted long term studies on the biology of the lemon shark and on the worldwide distribution of the billfishes (i.e. the marlin, sailfish and spearfish family). His research has been carried out under grants and contracts from the National Science Foundation, the Office of Naval Research, the National Geographic Society, the Engelhard Foundation, the Marine Research Foundation and his own personal funding.

In retrospect this was a truly unique era as he was among the first to personally enter and explore the oldest and richest of all life’s communities on Earth, tropical coral reefs. Going where no human had ever been, discovering phenomena no one knew of and exotic creatures whose existence was previously not even suspected were an everyday experience not to be repeated until someone steps foot on another world prolific with life.

Other Technological Development

Throughout his career Dr. Starck has been extensively involved with development of the technology required to facilitate his activities. In several instances patented inventions and commercial products have resulted. In addition to the optical dome port and the Electrolung other noteworthy achievements in this area have been: The Bangstick, a hermetically sealed underwater firearm for hunting and defense. Underwater housings for numerous cameras and instruments. Underwater lighting systems. A multipurpose commercial waterproof electrical connector. Design of the unique research vessel El Torito, a 9 meter high-speed diving launch, a 24 passenger eco-tourism vessel, and the Oceanic 8000 Longboat. The longboat was a long narrow high efficiency powerboat inspired by the efficiency of the log canoes of the Solomon Islands. He has also built and flown an amphibious aircraft of advanced canard wing design using high technology composite materials.

Writing and Publications

He has written over 50 articles and books. Among them are articles in Sea Frontiers, Skin Diver Magazine, Australian Natural History, Penthouse and three stories for National Geographic Magazine. He has also written poetry, film narratives, text for an interactive CD-ROM and magazine style articles published on various Internet web sites. Dr. Starck and the explorations of the El Torito have been the subject of numerous articles by various authors and two books by Wade Doak (Sharks and other Ancestors and Islands of Survival).

Still Photography

Began underwater photography in 1954 and was among the very first to adapt and use single lens reflex cameras, electronic flash, and macro, telephoto, and extreme wide angle lenses underwater. Wrote the book The Art of Underwater Photography published in 1965. His photography has been widely published in conjunction with his writing.

Film and Video Production

Dr. Starck has produced some 16 documentary films and videos. Most have involved marine exploration including extensive underwater photography. Others have featured the rain forest and ethnographic themes relating to island peoples, their beliefs and ways of life. Eight of them have been for television and between them have been broadcast in over 50 countries. In addition to producing his own films Dr. Starck has filmed and assisted with numerous other productions.

Web, Computer, and Multimedia

Has used personal computers since 1981 for a broad range of applications including data analysis, CAD, desktop publishing, image processing, audio & video editing, interactive multimedia development and web site design.

[ellicat]

Too true Ray lol.

The fact most of Australia's population is based in a few cities means opinion is very biased towards a city-centric view and reliant very much on opinion expressed in newspapers and television. Cities breed doom and gloom. You don't realise how much this is so until you head away from them for a while - then life seems great !

All my own opinion of course.

EDIT. I have a very interesting article by Starck in pdf format if anyone would like to have a read. Send me a pm with your email address and I'll send it on. (The file is too large to attach here - 1.14mb)

[Tiny Tin]

good to see stuff like this being banned about. may not be what a lot of people want to see but more and more fisho's are experiencing some effect from the greens. this is the best way to combat em..we are already doing more than most other countries in the world. so maybe the PEW ect can piss off and start trouble in their own back yards..that's not to say i'm for that either. but it's about time we had a government that stopped worrying about what everyone else on the plannet is thinking. best thing about oz is being able to say what ya think without someone sticking an 'ism' on ya. not many places in the world where you can do that today.

[DES]

Those MPA stats are amazing! It is like this bloody carbon trading they wont to impose on our industries. It will have no effect on the global scale and is purely motivated by the desire to look good in the eyes of the UN.

The problem is facts and logic have no effect on the radicals. They are totally irrational.

[Sparksie]

Helps confirm a few things on over regulation. Intersting facts. Thanks Ray

There was an article in the Courier Mail Saturday about the rise and rise of the Nanny State.. :dry:

Well, can't dwell on it...

I must now return to knitting, only allowed between the hours of 1.30pm to 2.30pm, Tuesday's and Thursday's. Only colours now approved by the government, to be used for the purpose of knitting being red, blue and yellow.

My knitting licence from the government is on its way in the post also I believe. :whistle:

[Tiny Tin]

Sparksie wrote:

Helps confirm a few things on over regulation. Intersting facts. Thanks Ray

There was an article in the Courier Mail Saturday about the rise and rise of the Nanny State.. :dry:

Well, can't dwell on it...

I must now return to knitting, only allowed between the hours of 1.30pm to 2.30pm, Tuesday's and Thursday's. Only colours now approved by the government, to be used for the purpose of knitting being red, blue and yellow.

My knitting licence from the government is on its way in the post also I believe. :whistle:

lol..nice one. hope your knitting a balaclava so no one recognises you

[rayke1938]

ellicat wrote:

Too true Ray lol.

EDIT. I have a very interesting article by Starck in pdf format if anyone would like to have a read. Send me a pm with your email address and I'll send it on. (The file is too large to attach here - 1.14mb)

I have just finished reading the above article and can thoroughly recommend it as essential reading .

It really debunks a lot of popular belief about human intervention on the Barrier reef and is backed up by solid data not feel good feelings.

I have forwarded it to a few people and if you wish it sent on please contact elicat or myself.

Cheers

Ray

[fishing_hardcore]

well I am going to have a say here and voice up if you disagree.

Firstly, being a greenie doesnt mean you instantly want everyone banned from fishing.

For example a member made a post about mangroves in Manly being cleared by a counciler named Cummings.

What an iggnorrent twat he is (Cummings that is), there is mountains of scientific information supporting every aspect of mangroves in the environment and their worth to fish, bird life ,sea grass, plankton and benthic species.

Moreton bay is a sedimentary zone, meaning the whole system relies on a detrial cycle in which the mangroves play a major part, remove the mangroves and you will have a barron fishing ground, with less bird life and most probably a poorer water quality.

Cummings so called park would be full of rats and ibis.

Secondly our fishing industry is not flourishing, take a look at the SA,TAS scallop industry over the last 20 years. The industry now relies on regulations and zones to maintain the livelyhood of many commercial scallop fisherman.

Thirdly I have spoken to a freind of mine from Thailand and he beleives Australia is a better fishing area because it has rules, Thailand does not have so many and therefore is getting fished out.

Fourthly, I agree whole heartedly that bloody pollies and heads of department are blundering their way through this with no real information, of course they have "moved", most of the "Greenies" out of their decision process to facilitate their poor management.I doubt you will find many real "Greenies" on the decision making board.

I am a "Greenie" at heart and if thats what it takes to have my say and to voice opinion in the face of the destruction of the bay then so be it.

In truth one should be careful , politicians are very, very cunning, I would not put so much worth into their green zone rubbish as sooner or later they will be using it as a bargaining point to clear the bay and develop it completely and utterly to somthing like a Gold coast canal.

cheers

[rayke1938]

Fishing hardcore pm me you email address and i will forward Walter Starcks atricle. it will really open your eyes as to how we are getting the wool pulled over our eyes over envioranmental issues.He backs his theories with real scientific data with undistutable facts.

One of the key issues that he adresses is research on coral trout numbers on the reef.

Cheers

Ray

[efc]

a greenie, peta supporter has never approached me and forced me to listen to their point of view, for that matter they havent posted a thread on this site to my knowledge either

get over it guys

[rayke1938]

Hey Guys

Lets clear a few things up.

I am not calling all greenies morons.

Maybe I was a little hasty in the title of the thread and should have called it eco morons.

I am not forcing my point of view.

I am diseminating information which in my belief discredits a lot of the spin in the media at the moment especially about the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park.

All I do is ask for people to have a read and then make up their own mind.

Cheers

Ray

[werewolf]

I'd be keen to have a read of that article Ray, will PM you my email. I am all up for conserving the environment, but I think the way the government tries to do it is crap.

It is probably a touch off topic but I think the ETS is utter crap. The earth is warming without our help. We "may" be helping it, but I haven't seen any scientifically correlated and peer reviewed data that is consistently recognized as indicating that man kind is significantly or otherwise warming our atmosphere. The media have globally created such fear and hype about man-made warming (and don't get me wrong, I have no doubt things are warming up, but I think man's impact is way less than what the media claims), the global warming tragics are becoming quite a vocal majority.

Someone start a group "Global Warming is #$^*ed" and I will be the first to sign up.

[DES]

efc wrote:

a greenie, peta supporter has never approached me and forced me to listen to their point of view, for that matter they havent posted a thread on this site to my knowledge either

get over it guys

I think all responsible fishos would consider themselves conservationists. The issue here is the ill-informed, irrational radicals.

I have been set upon by them several times while fishing landbased and it has not been pleasant.

I have also had experiences with them at Uni. In these cases when they realised that the majority does not share their views, they went behind our backs and tried to force the issue.

[Tybo]

Personally I think it's great that there's people fighting on both sides of the fence, for preservation and for lifestyle.

Thanks fishing_hardcore for standing up and saying what I to felt. I will always be a greenie at heart, but as for the Greens political party I do not support it one bit. They have their place, I believe human beings are greedy and need to be left out of certain places and left things just as they are. But if were up to the 'Greens', they would send this country into the third world, industry would collapse and you wouldn't be able to do anything in case it somehow affected some part of nature. We've gone from one extreme to the other, and now with anti-green sentiment like this, we're take another jump back to extreme. What ever happened to balance?

I agree we do import a lot of seafood, but that's because we export a lot too(most of the good stuff). And our industries may be better than Thailand but that doesn't mean they're that good. The only well managed seafood industry in Qld would be the Gulf prawn industry, I could almost guarantee every other one, reports are mixed from good to bad.

We need green zones, policing and common sense to ensure future fisheries, but we also need to find some balance to ensure we are allowed to fish too.

People scoff at the Americans, thinking they're all idiots. But on certain things they are way ahead of the park. One is protecting fish and game reserves and having them well managed by people actually concerned with fishing and hunting, not government idiots wanting to please 'city dwelling, greeny voters'. This is more what we need here, where fishing dollars go back into protecting, preserving and ensuring fishing areas, rather than into something else. Scientists and doctors argue and debate over who's evidence is right, while it gets none of them nowhere. Common sense is all you need, where a good balance helps both parties. Certain hunting and fishing reserves in the States are now crucial habitat areas for endangered species, which seems ironic that these certain species were saved from the brink of extinction by people wanting to hunt and kill them. This is because of people like former president Theodore Roosevelt who was as much famed hunter and naturalist as he was a president, and believed in setting aside land for wildlife and leisure. Places like Yellowstone National Park these days are propped up significantly by none other than fishing licenses.

But although licensing may be the answer it needs to be in the peoples hand, not the governments. As has what happened recently in WA, Queensland should consider itself very lucky and only hope that the cashless Bligh government hasn't heard how much it now costs to fish in WA.

/>http://fishwrecked.com/forum/new-fishing-licenses-and-west-coast-restrictions

Want to be able to fish for all species in WA? That'll be $450 thanks.

Imagine that here in Qld? With car, boat and trailer registration, plus a $450 fishing license, you mightn't get much change out of $1500.

Which is why rather than argue, bicker and fold our arms recreational fisherman should be working more closely with green groups and governments. Otherwise one day they wont need to protect areas or have green zone because it will simply be too expensive to fish.

[John]

For those wishing to read this article we have now got it in our downloads section. As people have said its up to each person to make their own opinions, so here it is for people to access.

/>http://www.australianfishing.com.au/community/downloads/doc_view/24-threats-to-the-great-barrier-reef

[HookedOnTackle]

on a side note, global dimming is reducing the earth's surface temp by 1-2 degrees c, which helps explain why every glacier in the world is retreating or already gone. it also causes droughts. this was on the abc a few years back and am sure you can google up some interesting facts.

backing up a couple of the other guys, environmentalists are generally most people, they just aren't sure what or how is the best way so listen to the most readily available information. some of the worst ones have claimed the title and painted us all as either for the planet, babies and kittens (sea or land)... or the negative foul smoke belching cute baby animal eaters.

ideals are dangerous, bush, bin laden, pew, hitler, stalin... many freedoms and in worst cases, lives, have been lost for the greater good of an ideal. sounds a little over the top, but a snowball can create an avalanche.

the article is a very thought provoking read! and though it may not be overfished, my dad has lived, holidayed and fished the GBR over many many years and stories he tells... just makes me wish i could have today's fishing gear/technology fifty years ago! thank you very much Rayke and Ellicat for bringing this up!

[ellicat]

I think the point of the thread is aimed at the extremist element and also the (ignorant) bandwagon element. I've said it before so apologies to those that have heard it before, but I think we're all "greener" than years ago and rightly so. Some are a little more than others.

What is frustrating is the infiltration of the extremist element into our daily lives via whatever media you get your information from. efc said he/she has not been approached by a greenie or peta rep. The fact is he/she would have read or heard some views from these people somewhere sometime and didn't know it. Even a pic on the ABC news site today was captioned with an extremist website. The reason for posting that website I'm not sure.

The dragon that hosts the morning show on ABC radio is a rabid from the greenie movement and her talkback content is well biased that way so a balanced view is rarely heard.

As I said in another thread - Rust never sleeps. The subliminal messages are constant, the indoctrination of school students is nothing short of astounding, the radical filter needs to be switched on constantly.

Tybo, Don't put scary ideas like that out there - you never know who's watching :silly: :laugh: We'll blame you if The Blighter gets a hold of that one

Also have a read of that blog in the other thread and even follow the links. PETA is dangerously influential.

(It's the second link posted 28/10/09 http://www.australianfishing.com.au/forum/96-environment/220060-rust-never-sleeps )

[rayke1938]

Good to see some healty debate which was the whole purpose of the post.

If it helps someone to make up their own mind and draw their line in the sand good.

Johnny thanks for putting it in the downloads section.

I have always been a bit of a cynic and over the years have learnt to always question the so called experts where is your research and what do you back it up with.

I find it a little ironic that the GBRMPA has hidden its own research as the results doesnt agree with their current warped thinking and aims.

This is indicative of all groups no matter who they are and what they are attempting ot achieve everyone including myself has to be prepared to step back, have a look and think is this the best outcome for the community at large?

Cheers

Ray

[kriso]

very good read, im similar in mind to ray as to how i make a decision on whats BS and whats not, being a mechanic this is the best way i can make my example, You bring your car to a garage cause its not running right, end of the day you pick it up and he says its all fixed that will be a $1000. you ask what was wrong he says needed carby overhaul and tune. now alot of people will say okay and pay.. I say okay so what was wrong with the carby? he says the usual stuff, needle and seat where stuffed and needed a gasket kit etc. then get him to show me what he is talking about - that doesnt look like a big job you cant do any better on the bill? i pay $750 and walk out.

Although this situation isnt realy about getting ripped off money wise, these people want you to believe they are right and for you to do the same, and when you ask how or why? the answer that is given to me with proof is the one i take. not the anwser because it what everyone else is doing.

[HookedOnTackle]

plus GBRMP want their funding up and more hoopla about their position. great way to lose a comfy gov't job if things aren't as scary as made out to be!

[Tybo]

ellicat wrote:

Tybo, Don't put scary ideas like that out there - you never know who's watching We'll blame you if The Blighter gets a hold of that one

:laugh: Maybe you're right Ellicat, sorry. After all loose lips sink ships.

[rayke1938]

Intresting letter to editor in November QFM.

Cheers

Ray

[fishing_hardcore]

thanks Ray

got the email but have not read it yet, I will kick back on the weekend and have a read.

I do not support PETA as they are freaks, but I do support RSPCA.

I do beleive some things need regulation and I am a bit of a greenie, but I will gladly take a fish and fillet it up for a great feed, and feel thankful I am able to do so.

Ray I did not take your post the wrong way.

However in this Howard style public service, we can be assured that the directions are not coming from greenies but from directives above heads of department.

cheers