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the great debate


shortie

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I fish many, many spots and don't flog the one area over and over. Its my way of doing my bit for fish stocks. My problem with this soapbox is that this research is nowhere near finished and we have people screaming from the rooftops without the full set of data to back up their calls.

If the the big ones are breeders then a max size limit should be legislated, but Dan calling for a closure of part of the river did not sit well with me, especially since we have just had a whole bunch of green zones slapped on us.

Whether it be fishing, drinking or fast food, moderation is important.

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rayke1938 wrote:

Cowfish13 wrote:
You know what else is hypocritical. People requesting others not to target Bass during the breeding season, just because it is the ethical thing to to. It is currently legal to target them (which, make no mistake, I think is ridiculous). Yet those same people slam others for requesting a similar thing, but with Threadfin Salmon in the river.

I didn't want to get drawn into this, but eh... It had to be said.

The BIG difference is that it is ILLEGAL to target bass during breeding season.

Cheers

Ray

A quick geez at the DPI site showed me this "Closed seasons prevent people from taking particular species at certain times of the year"

I remember alot of posts where the actual rules couldn't be resolved and where even emails to people from the DPI replied back that as long as you released them, it was ok.

I'm sorry if I read wrong, but that is what I remember

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hi tomca, you just said if the big ones are breeders then a size limit should be legislated

so obviously you agree that the breeders shouldnt be targetted and removed, same as with flathead etc

the pipeline is notorious for producing mainly big fish

the majority of fish that come from that area are big ones, and during this time the majority of the big ones in the river aggregate in the area to spawn (not just at the pipeline, they are schooling up all over the mouth to some degree, but around that area there are more- a sounder will tell you this)

so basically fishing for them in that area will more likely than not result in catching a big one, which you agree should be left alone

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B/boy, I'd be surprised if you didn't have some notion of ecology.

The point I am making is where a species is allowed to dminate it can have an adverse effect on the rest. Threadies eat whiting - flatties eat whiting. What will be (or is) the effect on those two species ? ...etc etc

Hopefully you can understand that. Let me know if it's a problem.

I enjoy your posts too.

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Cowfish13 wrote:

rayke1938 wrote:
Cowfish13 wrote:
You know what else is hypocritical. People requesting others not to target Bass during the breeding season, just because it is the ethical thing to to. It is currently legal to target them (which, make no mistake, I think is ridiculous). Yet those same people slam others for requesting a similar thing, but with Threadfin Salmon in the river.

I didn't want to get drawn into this, but eh... It had to be said.

The BIG difference is that it is ILLEGAL to target bass during breeding season.

Cheers

Ray

A quick geez at the DPI site showed me this "Closed seasons prevent people from taking particular species at certain times of the year"

I remember alot of posts where the actual rules couldn't be resolved and where even emails to people from the DPI replied back that as long as you released them, it was ok.

I'm sorry if I read wrong, but that is what I remember

It is illegal. Copied this from Ray's post at the time.

This is the definition of “take†as stated in the Fisheries Act 1994

take fisheries resources includes—

(a) catch, gather, kill or obtain from water or land; and

(B) attempt to catch, gather, kill or obtain from water or land; and

© land (from a boat or in another way), bring ashore or tranship.

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At this point I want Brads and anyone else researching this species, to finish their research and publish their findings. I agree with nothing specific at this stage. In principle I agree with max size limits, but as Ellicat pointed out, how will a population explosion of salmon in the river affect the rest of the balance. Will schools of salmon ravage the whiting population of brighton and Nudgee, pushing the flathead south? There is a much bigger picture here.

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brisbane_boy wrote:

So whats your stance on the subject Ray, you are a very experienced and avid angler who does well.

What do you think the future holds.

We are thinking about starting a petition up a lot are keen, what side are you on here.

I have previously stated my views in other threads.

Very Experienced = no old mug bait fisho.

Avid = yes

Does well = more often donuts.

I get most of my jollies by taking others out and seeing them get a fish.

Experienced in political lobbying yes 40 years in union movement mainly in workplace health and safety issues dealing with asbestos.

In the last round of submissions of the change of finfish size and bag limits I submitted a bag limit of one for threadfin. ( Think there is a post somewhere ) I did not say anything about a max size as then I had no knowledge on that subject.

With the petition are you just asking for more funding for Brads research project or do you envisage more regulation on size and bag limits?

Would any changes to regulations only pertain to Brisbane River?

Have you got a polly to sponsor your petition? That is a very important requirement .

Get Campbell Neuman on board also.The more named personalities that you can get to back you the better. Federal pollies even the Archbishop of Canterbury or Michael Jacksons ghost.

Are you going for an e petition?

Have you developed a publicity /distribution/collection plan?

Are you going state wide or just Brisbane Area.

Any thought of possible spread of threadies into other rivers and what protection they will need there?

Cheers

Ray

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tacklebox wrote:

It is illegal. Copied this from Ray's post at the time.

This is the definition of “take†as stated in the Fisheries Act 1994

take fisheries resources includes—

(a) catch, gather, kill or obtain from water or land; and

(B) attempt to catch, gather, kill or obtain from water or land; and

© land (from a boat or in another way), bring ashore or tranship.

Well there you go, I honestly cannot remember that post. Thanks for showing me that :)

But, is there that much of a difference between fishing for Threadies and Bass? Both are found across their respective ranges (ie not in isolated populations just around Brisbane). Both gather in large breeding aggregations at predictable times of the year. One is protected, and has benefited from it. One isn't...

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Ellicat.

Do you have nighmares about the forktail catties that dominated the river, I think with the max size limit now on bloody bullsharks of all things to protect the breeders the river is going to be eaten alive by sharks.

Ray, when the petition is done you will get a chance to sign it as will everyone else, there is currently some talks with people who will be putting forward some important information. Before the details are done It will be up for discussion thanks to all your points raised on what is the best way to do this. thanks for your help.

It does suggest sofar the large fish are in fact 100% breeding females, yell scream abuse me when you read otherwise but that is looking concrete.

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well ray all of those points are valid in the grand fight, but we're not triyng to bring th grand fight just yet, we're just getting started. in the meantime, and i stress in the meantime because going down all those roads to actually get legal changes in place takes forever and a day, we were hoping people would do the right thing and settle down on the threadies during spawning season. evidently though the education thing has been a monumental failure because week after week we see more breeding size threadfin on ice

we can't present half finished research to the law makers, but is the best 'meantime management plan' for us to ignore the issue and just keep fishing for them?

put it this way, we might be making mountains out of mole hills and the threadfin might be 100% safe even if people continue slaying breeders. but we don't know yet, and by the time we do know it could be too late. i've caught plenty of threadfin, i've got the threadfin bug out of my system. i would love if i could continue to catch them, but it wont be the end of my world if they dissapear from our system. however for all the people who havent experienced a threadfin in person, for their sake and for th sake of these beautiful fish i just hope that we can be sensible about their management while all the information is collected and a proper plan be put into place.

of course i realise that making posts on fishing forums isnt going to solve the problem, we are taking it further and thats all int he works. however i would have hoped that getting the word out in the mean time would have some impact, alot of people read forums like this and ausfish and the more people in the know the better

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One Barra in the Brisbane river does not constitute a fishery, so there is really no ethical issue there, it was legal too.

The debate over threadfin is valid and maybe they should be like flathead with a min and max size limit.

Other than that it is totally somones choice if they want to keep a 1 meter + thready; despite if our own personal thoughts on the matter may differ, it is not law.

cheers

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fishing_hardcore wrote:

One Barra in the Brisbane river does not constitute a fishery, so there is really no ethical issue there, it was legal too.

The debate over threadfin is valid and maybe they should be like flathead with a min and max size limit.

Other than that it is totally somones choice if they want to keep a 1 meter + thready; despite if our own personal thoughts on the matter may differ, it is not law.

cheers

Well if the government say it's ok then it's just gotta be :dry:

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i think the bottom line is the legality vs morality of the issue. if there is no legal trespass, then so be it. lol, it is not legally wrong to lead a promiscuous life, though some may argue that it is morally wrong to do so. so what is done about it? nothing. people mind their own business and society itself will decide the social image & standing of the person(s) in question.

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nadders have you though about painting a message on the pillons 'catch and release is great mate' or ' give the big breeders a break and chuck them back' or what i recon might just work 'the big ones taste like **** chuck em back' make this one popular and the fight is won

jason

ps ive never caught one and cant wait i just need a skipper to take me and teech me how

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well .

i fish a fair bit ,but i catch bugger all.

a few i let go a few ,i keep for a feed .

i have fished the pipe line ,about the same spot as ray i reckon .

thready heaven hey got nothing .fresh live,s and all.

don't know if i got 1 prob would not keep it as i got told there **** to eat and full of bones .

i would rather keep a few big decent fish for a feed than a heap of small ones .

i was going to opt out ,but after reading all of this thread .

not a **** fight yet ,just a lot of options and ideas and info ,so far.

if it's legal do what u want .

its you who has to live with it .

simple as .

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If only I was a fully informed and qualified scientist I would be happy to add my weighty knowledge to this debate.

As it is I am just a mortgage broker who loves to go fishing, but rarely eats fish.

If they change the laws I will obey them (as I do now), and expect others to also.

Be those laws in line with my "moral" expectations or not.

Let people make their own "moral" judgement, as long as they fall within the letter of the law.

rocket

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shortie wrote:

Thought i would post this in its own thread.

As many of you would of noticed lately there was much discussion regarding the catch and release of Threadfin Salmon in the Brisbane River.

Some people for, and some against. (Each to their own cause if its legal to do so its fine by me)

The principle argument for the (relese/ not targetting/ closed seaon, closed area) was to protect the species in this waterway so everyone can enjoy this great fish in our own backyard for years to come.

Now you have also seen the thread of a large Barra being caught in the same waterway. (A very very rare catch indead). Apparently this Barra was kept and eaten.

My qusetion is "Is it hypoctitical of the same persons wanting the threadies preserved and protected to keep such a large Barra that is definatelly a way more rare Catch?"

And 1 day before closed season.

a fish is a fish.it gets me how a fish can be deemed more important at a certain time of year. if you catch one and eat it..it still doesn't have the chance to breed. that said if i caught a barra in the brissy i would deem it too important to keep and release it. at the end of the day it's down to the discretion of the angler at the time.. i won't cast aspirations about anyone who keeps a fish for a feed. i do see your point tho..why save a threadie of which there's thousands then kill a barra of which there are way too few. i guess the answer is to get a few of us to chuck in a few bucks and start buying fingerling's to throw into the brissy river..then catch and eat as many threadies as you can to stop them eating the barra..lol. yeah it's a mute point for me. do what ya have to eh?

:)

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this'll probably get a few peeps annoyed (not meant to) but..i never saw anyone fish the pipeline. then the vid came out and now you have to buy a ticket to get on it. it doesn't bother me one way or the other as i dont target threadies. what does the most harm to the fishery? there's a reason a lot of fishos don't tell where they catch fish mainly coz someone tells someone else and on it goes. so now we have a spot that is a breeder gathering spot that is known to everyone coz we told em. then comes the line..we should protect em? some people will find that hypocritical..as in yep we've had our fill so lets make it a sanctuary. i know some of the guys that fish this area and they're good blokes..but i'd have to say if you want to protect the fish (above all else) then don't tell people about the spot. it kinda flys in the face of what this and other sites are all about i know.. but imo (that's all it is) it's no good telling everyone where they are..then crying out for people not to catch em? what to do eh? well i'll be down the mouth on the weekend to catch a barra..not! i'll be heading to peel..mud..green..the capt' or arrys to get a feed of reefies. i go fishing to catch a feed of fish..i release a few and our size limits are sometimes above the legal ones.. i can't see much point in keeping anything that's under 30cm..but that's just me..if you do fine if it's legal. each to their own i say..all the best guys :)

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Tiny Tin, I agree, but I think the point/opinion nadders is trying to make is not to "slay" (emotive language) them as they are schooled up for the spawn and they are sitting ducks and it's not really giving them a sporting chance.

As we can see opinions vary considerably. Good to hear everyone's opinion. Just hope everyone realises when an opinion is posted and then challenged, the challenge isn't a personal attack, it's just an opinion on the opinion :blink: :laugh:

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ellicat wrote:

As we can see opinions vary considerably. Good to hear everyone's opinion. Just hope everyone realises when an opinion is posted and then challenged, the challenge isn't a personal attack, it's just an opinion on the opinion :blink: :laugh:

Very true words ellicat,..

as Beeper the wise owl once said "opinions are like butt holes,everyone has one,but they often play different tunes" :huh::blush: ;)

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I think the real risk to fishermen is being locked out of fishing, not loss of stocks to catch. Particularly when the instant response by the green brigade anytime a fishing resource is threatened is to lock it away, as in green zones etc. The obvious solution is fish management and fish stocking. It is a real shame that the DPI in Qld dont support salt water stocking it has been very successful down south.

Just means we only have fish management as a tool. But even with the limited tools we have available to us, fisherman are quite capable of ensuring there are enough fish to catch. This is what Nadders is talking about, I fully support the methodology, I just dont agree with his hypothesis that Threadies are in need of further management at this point. I have seen absolutely zero research that shows the area in question is a "breeding zone" or any evidence that the Threadies are at risk at this point. Show me the evidence and I'll be beside Nadders beating the drum.

This has been an interesting debate, mostly just opinion,no research or scince involved, but everyone has an opinion, and whilst my moral stance on fishing is that I will defend anyone's right to fish within the law of the land, my moral stance is that I will also defend anyone's right to have, and voice, their opinion. (As long as they are not breaching my moral stance no 1!)

Flathead, your somewhat amusing, as Rob, whilst not what anyone would call a greenie in their wildest dreams, (Hey by the sounds of it his lures, which he seems to plug regularly in every odd post, are responsible for more dead threadies than any individual fisherman) has more or less been on the conservation side of the debate in this thread. So your attack on him just shows you couldn't be bothered reading the thread in anything but the vaguest way.

Your attack on Ray and myself shows you know little of our history or efforts in fish conservation, research and breeding.(A look at my signature would give you a clue) But that doesn't matter, you entitled to your opinion as well, although some basic reading of others posts may make your opinion hold a bit more sway.

I'd just like to thank everyone (mostly) for a very robust, but respectful debate. It might have started from a bewdy of a Shortie hand grenade (been a while mate, been on holidays?) lobbed at a couple of people, (who took it on the chin by the way) but I believe useful in the end!

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If the few people on this site stop fishing this area it will mean didly squat, as you have well known guides taking people there, radio shows promoting it, tackle shops promoting it and magazines promoting it. I have only been once but hope to go again and if I decide to take one home then that will be up to me and me alone. I agree if they look like being fished out than some form of management is needed and what ever is decided on the rare occasion I visit I will abide.

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Part 1.

I would just like to reiterate yes you are just preaching to the already converted on this forum.

To bring about change you have to be prepared to fight a long hard battle in the real world.

Do NOT expect others to pick up the batton and run with it for you.

Persistance and dedication will pay off in the long run if your cause is just.

Waste of time and effort if you cannot back up your case with hard data.

Be prepared and expect a punch in the nose then a kick in the guts .

Make it a political issue.

If it can be demonstrated that we have a sustainable regulated fishery on our doorstep just think what it can do to our local tourism.

Why travel to the far north to catch a metre barra when there are better fighting and eating fish on our doorstep.

Think outside the square.

look for a funding sourse as you will be surprised how much any sort of a campaign will cost just for telephone and postage and printing.

Just because you get an initial setback dont give up.

Part 2.

Regarding the targeting bass in closed season issue.

My initial telephone call to the DPI call centre resulted in wrong information being given. ( they said its ok as long as you release)

I then sent an email anr the response more of less said the same thing.

I then read the act rather than the abbreviated version that everyone else was using and sent another email which ended up with the head of section who stated what I had believed to be the correct determination.

Not being satisfied with this I did a follow up with my local member who has made a representation to the DPI and as a result of this I have been told that in the next round of the fisheries act amendments there will be a cocidil to the bass closed season section clearly stating that it is illegal to target bass during the closed season to draw it into line with the barra closed season legisation.

Cheers

Ray

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Yep, I don't intend to preach on a forum and leave it at that lol but as you have said the biggest thing holding me back atm is lack of published scientific research.

For the record i don't need a research paper to tell me that the pipeline is their spawning area, a slow run over there with the eyes on the sounder will tell you that (basically every little bump on the bottom holds 1 big fish and 2-4 slightly smaller fish surrounding it). i started noticing this around the september

John,

the pipeline has been flogged for a number of years, articles and videos started coming out in 2006 or so. I agree my own youtube vids did nothing to help my cause which is why i removed them a few weeks ago, but the spot was definately no secret at that point. I guess the point of protecting them during spawning season is that each breeding female releases a crap ton of eggs during spawn. It's the same mentality that went into the flathead max size limit (even more important in this case though, as flathead , the only fish capable of releasing eggs are the big females

And Dino, as I've said I know this forum is a drop in the ocean but there has to be a starting point doesn't there, information spreads by word of mouth too, i guess the best starting point until we have the research to take it to dpi is to discourage the taking of breeders during spawning season, then someone on the forum might tell someone they know, etc etc.

Thats my thinking anyway, I understand if people are sceptical without published scientific research to back up claims, and as i've said before this may all be a moot point and the stocks may be in no danger at all, whatsoever. I sincerely hope this is the case and that i'm proved wrong about the whole ordeal. However at the moment we're seeing the fish that are the result of spawning seasons in the years gone past, and I don't think that as many big fish have been taken out of the system previously as they have this season.

My take on things is why not leave them to do their thing, don't kill the big breeders until we have the research either way, because all it really takes is one season where most breeding females are taken out for a pretty sharp decline in numbers :S

Thanks for the debate, always good to give my fingers a workout when the office is slow. hopefully good will come out of these discussions as well and the solution that will benefit all will be reached

Cheers

Dan

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my answer on the original question,

i would of put the barra back as i do almost all my fish as im to lazy to clean/ cook it but it was a legal take so no qualms there. as for threadies would love to see a max size and baglimit of 1 brought in as for a closed season would depend on research results etc but im certainly not disgruntled if one came in yet it would be rather hard to inforce IMO.

Side note as a mod - i would advise members to read my sig line before you add your bit to this thread so we dont end up with a mess, as brian has said these are opinions not personal attacks

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I agree with kriso there i owuld of put it back as its rare for that area.I also would love to see threadies have the same sort of thing as flatties.But then if we started doing all that you would have to do the same with snapper ,bream ect so its a hard one ayy.But over all it was great catch and should be left as that.

cheers sean

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There is a lot of people who fish for threddys who have taken fish in the past agreeing things need to be done to continue the good fishery we have.

My trip went ok last night got a just undersize jew, as large as it looked and a 90cm threddy, if the fishery continues to be as good as it it now ill be happy, thats all im expecting.

it doesnt faze me 1 bit to see people catching and filling an esky with fish if thats what they want to do.

i sense over this issue my future sport is at risk, will the scientists hurry up and tell us?

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Threadies up in Gladstone spawned in very shallow water, not sure if they do spawn at the pipeline as it is significantly deeper. I hope brad's report will clear this up when released. I know they do congregate and feed in packs - I have observed them doing this in about 2ft of water in Gladstone and in the fitzroy river. That's just my previous observations. I would suggest this could potentially be the reason for congregation around the pipeline as they seem to be there 24-7, as opposed to just during spawning cycles which seemed to coincide with the full moon in Gladstone.

To answer the original question... Yes I do think it is hypocritical. But as it is in bounds of the law it is difficult to persecute based on the hypocracy.

As for thready conservation... A max size, closed season and alike would potentially be a positive step - pendind the outcome of scientific research. As for now, as long as what people are doing is legal and they don't get all preachy about conservation when people are obeying these laws there's not a lot you can say really.

And just an FYI to those who say they are sitting ducks and easy to catch... You might have cracked a code, there are many people to whom a big threadie is still in the dream pile.

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I've been reading this thready debate for weeks now.. jeez it just won't die :P

I can see that you are concerned about the stocks and the spawning of the threadys Nadders and B_boy, and concerned with what seems to be a free for all on the threadies as they are sitting ducks at the pipeline.

But from my top of the fence (i'm not on any side)... what about the guys that target threadies all along the river and consistantly catch them no matter what time of year??? For all the big ones caught and killed (deliberate or accident) by these guys.. wouldn't that be a massive impact as well? and probably a bigger impact than the occasional fisher that catches 1 or 2 threadies a year??

Re the barra ... personally... I woulda released it. It may not be a fishery now... but how do you know that this barra wasn't a potential breeder that could have been part of the grassroots start that was needed?? Yeah they may not naturally occur here... but they can obviously live in the river... why not be able to breed as well?? Darwinism... survival of the fittest. What if this barra met another barra in the Bris river and they bred??... chance are their offspring are more likely to survive in the river and start a new population.

And yeah... good to see this debate is remaining relatively civil :)

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Do$tylz wrote:

I've been reading this thready debate for weeks now.. jeez it just won't die :P

I can see that you are concerned about the stocks and the spawning of the threadys Nadders and B_boy, and concerned with what seems to be a free for all on the threadies as they are sitting ducks at the pipeline.

But from my top of the fence (i'm not on any side)... what about the guys that target threadies all along the river and consistantly catch them no matter what time of year??? For all the big ones caught and killed (deliberate or accident) by these guys.. wouldn't that be a massive impact as well? and probably a bigger impact than the occasional fisher that catches 1 or 2 threadies a year??

Re the barra ... personally... I woulda released it. It may not be a fishery now... but how do you know that this barra wasn't a potential breeder that could have been part of the grassroots start that was needed?? Yeah they may not naturally occur here... but they can obviously live in the river... why not be able to breed as well?? Darwinism... survival of the fittest. What if this barra met another barra in the Bris river and they bred??... chance are their offspring are more likely to survive in the river and start a new population.

And yeah... good to see this debate is remaining relatively civil :)

what if it had bred with a thready, terrys groper or a bully???? Super barra??? That'd be fun!!!

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fisheries can tip 20 thous barra fingerlings in tomorrow if they want

it cannot happen with threddies.

size limit of maybe 90-100cm if they breed over that makes sense to me, better than no protection at all, over to the scientists but for now ill err on side of caution and do my bit releasing and encouraging that until evidence proves we will be infested with threddys no matter how many get taken out.

ps

i ate some of the barra last nite, wasnt hugely impressed but i am fussy lol. mangrove jack is much nicer and perl perch even better.

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^^ b-boy - wouldn't it be better conservation to just ease up on targetting them?? so instead of targetting and catching them every week (or however often you go out targetting them)... why not only go out once a month? I'm not singling you out, just using you as an example :)

Yes fisheries could tip 20 thousand fingerlings in... but who says that the ones that they have would survive in the Bris river?? those fingerlings they have could be conditioned to not survive in our waters... its a lot of ifs, buts and maybes... but to me.. it probably had more value left alive :)

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