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Is Regular Unleaded being Phased Out Soon


Gad

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Does anyone have any factual knowledge(I know facts and fisho`s dont go together.lol) on this subject.

I heard recently,on a talk back radio program that Kruddy Rudd has called for fuel companies to take the initiative to have E10 fuel sales,at their outlets, make up 50% of their sales.(I missed if there was supposed to be a time frame,there usually is).

In this months Qld Fishing Monthly "From the Editor`s Desk",the editor says, that according to some reports,over 100 petrol stations(I assume this may mean Brisbane/SEQ area)have ceased stocking regular unleaded,and only offer E10 and higher octane fuels that are 6-10c~ a litre dearer than regular unleaded.

Now I think it is fairly well accepted(except by the Federal & Qld governments and rabids),that E10 is not the best(engine health,fuel economy or power wise)) for a lot of car engines,and is definately not compatable as a boating fuel,because of..rubber seals dissolving,fibreglass disintergrating and fuel pumps and filters clogging up from the partial break down of these materials.

Some outboard manufacturers reccommend that only regular unleaded be used in their engines.

cheers Gad

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I have a caltex fuel card and have just received this email from them.

its our very own Anna the goanna who is to blame.

As part of the commitment to the Queensland Government mandate regarding the use of Ethanol blended fuels, Caltex is currently upgrading a number of sites throughout the network.

In order to meet our commitments to this initiative some sites will no longer offer 91 Octane ULP once the E10 (10% Ethanol) conversion has taken place.

The following sites are being upgraded:

1. Caltex Worongary - 1 Mudgeeraba Road , Worongary, QLD, 4213

2. Caltex Park Ridge - 3726 - 3730 Mount Lindesay Hwy , Park Ridge , QLD, 4125

3. Caltex Alexandra Hills - Corner Finucane Road / Cambridge Drive , Alexandra Hills , QLD, 4161

4. Caltex Goodna - 1 Church Street , Corner Cunningham Highway , Goodna, QLD, 4300

For further information regarding the Queensland Government Ethanol initiative please see: http://www.industry.qld.gov.au/dsdweb/v4/apps/web/content.cfm?id=6200

For further information regarding E10 suitability for your vehicle please see: http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/2006/6/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol

This is extract at end of above link from Federa Chanber of Automotive Industries.

REASONS WHY ETHANOL BLENDED PETROL IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN SOME OLDER VEHICLES

Introduction

The following information outlines the key reasons why vehicle manufacturers do not recommend the use of any ethanol/petrol blended fuels in vehicles made before 1986. This information is also applicable to post-1986 vehicles listed as unsuitable to use ethanol blended petrol.

Ethanol has a number of important chemical and physical properties that need to be considered in a vehicle's design.

Carburettor Equipped Engines

Vehicles made before 1986 vehicles were predominantly equipped with carburettors and steel fuel tanks.

The use of ethanol blended petrol in engines impacts the air/fuel ratio because of the additional oxygen molecules within the ethanol's chemical structure.

Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns. This is because the vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.

As a solvent, ethanol attacks both the metallic and rubber based fuels lines, and other fuel system components.

Ethanol also has an affinity to water that can result in corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel lines. Rust resulting from this corrosion can ultimately block the fuel supply rendering the engine inoperable. Water in the fuel system can also result in the engine hesitating and running roughly.

Fuel Injected Engines

In addition to the issues mentioned above for carburettor equipped engines, the use of ethanol blended petrol in fuel injection systems will result in early deterioration of components such as injector seals, delivery pipes, and fuel pump and regulator.

Mechanical fuel injection systems and earlier electronic systems may not be able to fully compensate for the lean-out effect of ethanol blended petrol, resulting in hesitation or flat-spots during acceleration.

Difficulty in starting and engine hesitation after cold start can also result.

Exhaust And Evaporative Emission Levels

Lean-out resulting from the oxygenating effect of ethanol in the fuel may affect exhaust emissions.

Of more concern is that fuel containing ethanol can increase permeation emissions from fuel system components, particularly those that have aged for nearly 20 years. Therefore the increased vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted at the refining stage) will lead to increased evaporative emissions.

Dismal

Ray

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Thanks Ray,

looking at the seeable future, going by the list of vehicles that are not suited to E10, goodbye pre 1986 vehicles,goodbye at least half the motor bikes on the road at present,those vehicles that are suitable will have more frequent and costlier maintenance reqiurements.

Our Anna had better forget the desalination plants and raising existing dam walls,and the koalas,she`ll need that money plus more to get the already

overloaded,underfunded,outdated public transport system sorted out,for those that can`t financially handle the the E10 change over.

As for me,I`ll start convincing my 2 youngest boys to check out their high school`s, school based motor apprenticeships.

cheers Gad

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Gad wrote:

Thanks Ray,

looking at the seeable future, going by the list of vehicles that are not suited to E10, goodbye pre 1986 vehicles,goodbye at least half the motor bikes on the road at present,those vehicles that are suitable will have more frequent and costlier maintenance reqiurements.

The older vehicles will still be able to use Premium ULP and the Performance fuels (BP Ultimate, Shell V-Power, Caltex Vortex etc). I haven't yet heard that these will be replaced with ethanol blends. The Bligh government are a bit slow but I doubt even they are dopey enough to stop half of the road users from being able to drive.

Terry

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Premium used to be regulated at 3.5c (i think) more then Regular ULP, I am pretty sure this is still the case. The performance fuels aren't so can charge whatever the market will pay.

Don't get me wrong I think it is a monumentle stuff up to remove regular unleaded from sale, however the talk that old cars will have to be removed from the roads is all rubbish. There will always be other options, even if they are more expensive.

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well by that list every car i own can't run on E10.guess i better get the push bike out.

1994 Mazda 626 no E10.

i run it on E10 now, it doesn't ping higher octane .

on unleaded petrol pings it head off.

but plastic tank ,but have had to change fuel lines as the fall apart .

great for the injectors hey .

which will prob fall apart too .

but hopefully the car is ...... by then.

1984 Toyota landcruiser

really did not like E10 ,ran like a billy goat .

got it sort of sorted after a bit of stuffing about .it runs ok .

but there is a but .

Exhaust And Evaporative Emission Levels

Lean-out resulting from the oxygenating effect of ethanol in the fuel may affect exhaust emissions.

Of more concern is that fuel containing ethanol can increase permeation emissions from fuel system components, particularly those that have aged for nearly 20 years. Therefore the increased vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted at the refining stage) will lead to increased evaporative emissions.

there is that part to get it run i got to run it real rich .

lets say u are behind me in a car and u sit on my ass.

i just rev it a bit and cover u in black soot and fume u out .

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what fuel does everyone run their 2 stroke on?

i use caltex, but after Ray's post about the change wondering if there's other alternatives? also heard that they only have to advertise that they use ethanol only if it is 10% or above?

so does that mean the non-ethanol ones could also be running 9%?

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rayke1938 wrote:

All those alternate fuels carry a 10 to 20 cents per litre premium over the current ulp prices .

Cheers

Ray

everything the governments bring in these days has a large user cost tied to it,with little option but pay or do without.

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had gas convertion put in my Ford a while ago,have to always keep 1/4 tank of petrol,run it on petrol for about 10-15 mins a week.

I`ve been told that after a while ethanol separates from the petrol,this then causes a fair amount of condensation build up, which then means you have 3 separated liquids in your fuel tank,ethanol,petrol,water.

FAAAARK Beatties plan to help the canefarmers low sugar price,which are now heading upwards fast.

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i left some e10 in my falcon when i retired her ,steel tank .

a year later i drained it ,every bit of plastic and rubber was stuffed .

it smelled like thinners and metho.

it was red and cream colour .like red oxide paint really thinned out.and creamy like oil and water colour .it was nasty stuff .got it dumped .

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Good read Just add this to the list of the great things this government has done :angry::angry:

THE QUEENSLAND State Government announced this week that it will mandate a minimum five percent ethanol content in unleaded fuels sold in the state from the end of next year.

State Treasurer Andrew Fraser said the new law would see 183 million litres of fuel ethanol produced each year, providing new jobs and opportunities for farmers.

Speaking to state parliament this week, Mr Fraser said that a mandate would motivate investment in the ethanol industry.

Acknowledging that around 25 percent of car models cannot be run on ethanol blended fuels, Mr Fraser said that allowances would be made to ensure drivers still have access to regular and premium unleaded.

“The proposal would apply the mandate in such a manner that regular unleaded petrol would remain widely available,†Mr Fraser said.

“The proposed ethanol mandate would apply to all petrol wholesalers and petrol retailers who own ten or more sites.

Mr Fraser said that this approach would have 73 percent of Queensland’s petrol retailers selling ethanol blended fuels, while smaller stations could continue to offer regular fuels.

“As we confront climate change this proposal assists us now and more importantly into the future, through providing a platform for further research and development in next generation technology,†Mr Fraser said.

Similar proposals in Western Australia have failed, with the WA Government announcing that it will not look to institute any mandate requiring any ethanol content in unleaded fuel.

Describing the WA Government’s decision as “a victory for common senseâ€, Australian Lot Feeders’ Association President Jim Cudmore urged the Queensland Government to reconsider.

Mr Cudmore told Farm Weekly that ethanol mandates lead to higher grain and food prices, potential job losses, and huge compliance costs as the industry waits for more advanced ethanol technologies.

The Federal and Victorian Government have so far opposed ethanol mandates.

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Where the "F" are the opposition parties,in this country/state,publicly and loudly telling the people of these decisions and presenting whole for and against facts relating to these type of issues.

The opposition as a viable government alternative at the next election??,by default if their lucky,their having enough trouble figuring out what their role as the opposition is.

It really is bad when you find out news off a fishing forum,what lies ahead and will affect everyone in the state some how,but that shows what a strong, vibrant, knowledgeable,interest group we are as members of AFO

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For those of you who may be interested :

We are currently formulaing a multi-additive fuel pack suitable for 2-stroke and 4-stroke marine engines to "upgrade" E-10 reliability for marine use.

The product contains an octane booster, water solubilizer, biocide and anti-corrosive mix specifically tailored to overcome the condensation and corrosion problems associated with condensation moisture in E-10 marine fuels.

We expect market release of the product early in 2010.

Regards,

BAH

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baheath wrote:

For those of you who may be interested :

We are currently formulaing a multi-additive fuel pack suitable for 2-stroke and 4-stroke marine engines to "upgrade" E-10 reliability for marine use.

The product contains an octane booster, water solubilizer, biocide and anti-corrosive mix specifically tailored to overcome the condensation and corrosion problems associated with condensation moisture in E-10 marine fuels.

We expect market release of the product early in 2010.

Regards,

BAH

g`day baheath,

pardon my ignorance,

Who or what are "We are currently....", I was unaware that there was a such a thing called "E-10 marine fuel"

cheers Gad

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Gad wrote:

baheath wrote:
For those of you who may be interested :

We are currently formulaing a multi-additive fuel pack suitable for 2-stroke and 4-stroke marine engines to "upgrade" E-10 reliability for marine use.

The product contains an octane booster, water solubilizer, biocide and anti-corrosive mix specifically tailored to overcome the condensation and corrosion problems associated with condensation moisture in E-10 marine fuels.

We expect market release of the product early in 2010.

Regards,

BAH

g`day baheath,

pardon my ignorance,

Who or what are "We are currently....", I was unaware that there was a such a thing called "E-10 marine fuel"

cheers Gad

"We" are a company called "Chemical Consulting Services Pty Ltd" - the company acts as consultants to industry for chemical formulation and manufacture. In this case, the company has undertaken independent research and development as a potential market entry into the fuels additive arena to solve a specific emerging problem i.e. the use of E-10 fuels in marine outboards.

We have previously formulated products for marine diesel use - specifically biocides and DDI/Cetane packages - for sale by third parties - and biocides for petroleum industry used as HUM-bug [Hydrocarbon Utilising Micro-organisms] inhibitors {shocking acronym, but there you go}.

You are correct that there is not a specific "E-10 Marine fuel" however with the evolution of E-10 as the generally available petrol for use - and hence the successor to "normal" ULP - there are a number of problems arising when this fuel is used in marine engines. Most notable of these is "condensation" of the ethanol out of the E-10 fuel into a separate phase. This isn't really condensation, but is the effect of water condensation - caused by fuel tanks "breathing" moist atmosphere and subsequent water vapour condensation - mixing with E-10 to cause phase separation of the water/ethanol blend from the E-10.

This leads to 3 main problems :

1. The separated ethanol/water phase is heavier than the rest of the fuel hydrocarbon structure and sinks to the bottom of the tank and is then preferentially fed to the engine via the fuel system. This phase IS NOT a good fuel (insufficient combustion support) and the presence of high levels of water in the phase will cause filter blockage - particularly in paper filter cartridges that are not "coalescing filters".

2. The resultant ethanol/water phase is likely to lead to corrosion of fuel system parts - especially in a salty environment. Pure hydrocarbons do not dissolve appreciable quantities of salts, so fuel system corrosion is generally not an issue - however E-10 fuels have relatively high salt solubility which is further "improved" by moisture uptake.

3. Fuel which is not "water saturated" to the point of forming separate phases may still contain sufficient water to allow HUM-bugs to proliferate and these can then damage fuel systems via the release of (a) metabolic acids which are by-products of the bugs' growth cycle and (B) filter plugging due to spore and biomass slime formation. These bugs used to be categorised as a single organism (cladisporium resinae - the dreaded "diesel fuel bug") but it is now recognised that there are up to a dozen separate bugs that can cause the problem.

I spent many years as a chemist with one of the major oil companies, both in production and R&D, and about 10 years ago moved out to form my own company - this company now produces a wide range of chemicals which are sold by third parties throught Australia. We act primarily as "problem solvers" - see a problem and fixit.

E-10 will be a problem in certain environments under certain circumstances - we believe we have an appropriate fix.

Regards,

BAH

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Thanks baheath,

I always like info,form the horse`s mouth,so to speak.

Will this additve be suitable for ALL outboards in use today,..if using this additve and E-10,

does this additive also overcome the oil/petrol separation associated with E-10 in 2 stroke fuels

when using this mix, would the rec fisher/boater only need to "as manual" keep up his regular service maintenance (normal wear & tear not included)or would this fuel combination require extra srevices or maintenance requirements.

cheers Gad

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i have a 1.3l small car and use the real premium fuel in it. i have found it is usually just under 10% more than ulp but i get about 15% better fuel economy, plus it is better for my car and burns better for the environment.

don't bother with the 95pulp

in the usa, corn prices have skyrocketed, ie food, as corn is used in i think it is biodiesel and/or fuel ethanol. so many cane farmers use vast amounts of water with the inefficient massive sprinklers.

government will probably put a levy on parts that get eaten by the ethanol, make a few extra bucks!

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I read this with interest although a lot of the chemistry jargon go's over my head but I can get my head around it sort of :blink:

The bottom line for me is I have a 2009 Volvo Penta (5.7 lt) power plant in my boat (which complies to all emission Regs in the States :) )

BUT in the owners manual it is HIGHLIGHTED that use of ANY ethanol blended fuels will void my 3 yr +2 warranty :blink: and I doubt that saying yeah but I added this or that will change that :angry: no offense meant good on you for trying to make it work :)

I currently have a 200 lt under floor tank which I'm looking @ splitting into 2 separate tanks to avoid stale unleaded probs which may arise so I can run one dry and fill with fresh fuel (thought that was bad enough :woohoo: )

But now with this e10 crap I'll be forced to use premium and as Ray said the price difference is horrendous :angry:

On the water 40 k's out there are no servo's so I prefer to carry more fuel than needed as you would :) so a full tank / tanks are the norm and given that premium unleaded can reach as high as 1.49 c a lt on W/E's as opposed to 1.30 for normal ulp

The cost of a trip will rise big time :angry:

IMO it seems to me that some one in the fuel industry knows some one in the Government and will get a big kick back :angry:

I wonder at the end of the day if boaties etc go out less because they can't afford fuel due to being forced to use premium fuel how much will they lose in the end ???

Sorry if I have ranted but this really pev's me off

bring on LPG for Marine application :) solves the lot ;) for 4 strokes anyway

Cheers Gaz

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Gad wrote:

Thanks baheath,

I always like info,form the horse`s mouth,so to speak.

Will this additve be suitable for ALL outboards in use today,..if using this additve and E-10,

does this additive also overcome the oil/petrol separation associated with E-10 in 2 stroke fuels

when using this mix, would the rec fisher/boater only need to "as manual" keep up his regular service maintenance (normal wear & tear not included)or would this fuel combination require extra srevices or maintenance requirements.

cheers Gad

Hi Gad,

The additive [which is, in fact, a blend of additive technologies] should function for all outboards. That being said - even the additive mix has limits. It will fix entrained water and settled mixture up to a point. The additive will need to be used with each tank-full to obtain total protection and won't help if, in the extreeme, you swamped the fuel tank. It's job it to prevent condensation moisture build-up in the fuel.

The intent is for the product to be "seemless" - you shouldn't need to do anything other than add it to your fuel and then treat your engine the way you normally would. Of course the expectation is that fuel filters, etc are all in place and being used appropriately - basic "protection" devices are always the first line of defense. My greatest concern is the potential long term damage caused by "wet" fuel - corrosion of parts is a PITA - easily stopped but often not catered for in the marine environment and certainly not catered for in E-10.

The oil separation issue is an extension of the "phasing" problem seen with E-10. 2-stroke oils are primarily a light heating oil carrier + ashless detergent dispersant (ADD) + about 10% "heavy lubricant". In newer "synthetic" 2-stroke oils the heavy lube is PAO (polyalphaolefin - think "Mobil 1" base stock) or PIB (polyisobutylene) - both are very clean burning lubes and soluble in hydrocarbons - but the additives can drop out and diminish the protection/cleaning effect of the ADD which ultimately leads to lubrication loss and dirty upper engine conditions.

So, we are also considering whether we release two versions - one as an "additive only" version for 4-stroke/oil injected engines and the other a "formulated 2-stroke" oil with the additive built into the 2 stroke oil at std ratio.

I'd be interested in feedback from the group (obviously part of our target market) on whether the "Additive only" or "2 products to market" option would work better. Personally I'd think a separate product for 4-stroke and 2-stroke - but I'm a chemist, not a marketer.

regards,

BAH

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Thanks again baheath,

any science qualifications/knowledge gained by years of my lack of hard study,my sweat

and (when they felt they had an extra point needing to made) beatings by science masters,mercifully, finished the year the holden HR was released to the motoring world.

seriously,thanks for your replies,I can understand what you have said.

cheers Gad

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Gad wrote:

Where the "F" are the opposition parties,in this country/state,publicly and loudly telling the people of these decisions and presenting whole for and against facts relating to these type of issues.

Wont be a problem for their voters, most farmers switched over to subsidised diesel when the GST came in.

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Feral wrote:

Gad wrote:
Where the "F" are the opposition parties,in this country/state,publicly and loudly telling the people of these decisions and presenting whole for and against facts relating to these type of issues.

Wont be a problem for their voters, most farmers switched over to subsidised diesel when the GST came in.

Very true Feral, and I understand their also very gratefull to the tax payer for subsidised fuel for their boating activiies on the water too.Shame we have to pay full dollar for everything...but thems the breaks

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ellicat wrote:

Baheath,

As a 2 stroke user I'd like to see it all in the 2 stroke oil I use, rather than as a seperate additive.

Would be interested to hear your opinions on the different oil brands .... whether "oils aint oils" is true.

Cheers, and thanks for the informative posts. :)

Hi ellicat,

"Oils aint oils" is true - not that I worked for Castrol though.

Oils can be made from a number of different basestocks and additives each of which have their own particular characteristics.

The most common bases are :

mineral oils (paraffinic or naphthenic) - cheap and readily obtainable

"semisynthetic" - Shell XHVI technology (wax cracking), mineral/syn blends

"true" synthetics - polyalphaolefin (PAO), polyisobutylene (PIB), di-ester, polyglycol, etc

There are even some vege based products.

The basestock makes up the bulk of the oil and is chosen based on the desired characteristics (eg cost, physical traits - colour, pour point, viscosity, VI, boiling range; chemical traits - oxidation resistance, gum formation, acid number, stability, additive solubility). Oils are often blended to create a basestock which comes close to an "ideal" range for a given product.

Additives are then introduced to improve the product - antioxidants, anti-wear agents, metal deactivators, VI improvers, flow improvers, detergent/dispersants - the list goes on!

As for which brand, or oil type, is better - it depends on end-use.

ALMC (the Australian Lubricant Manufacturing Company at Lytton) are owned by and produce for Caltex (Ampol/Chevron), BP and Castrol and probably repack for quite a few OEMs. Shell produce at Pinkenba. ExxonMobil produce at Yarraville in Victoria. Valvoline at Whetherill Park (Sydney). Smaller players (Prolube, O-Tech, etc have local plants). All produce good quality lubricants for general use. So things like hydraulic oils can be bought from pretty much anyone - they are basically just "light oil" with a dash of antiwear anyway.

2-stroke oils are "sacrificial" - all burnt off during use - the main thing is a good ashless detergent/dispersant to keep the motor clean inside and the right level of heavy stock for lubrication. I prefer the "smokeless" synthetics - but that's a matter of choice rather than a technical issue.

4-stroke oils - hmmmmmmmm. Personally, if there's a marine version of Mobil 1 I'd go for that - expensive, but the anti-wear properties are increadible. Only good from new though (or after a rebuild) - if you use it in an older "sludged up" motor the rings will be stripped of carbon and take forever to re-seat. On a more reasonable (price point) note - probably the Shell Nautilus oils - marine specific and well made.

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"oils aint oils" is true.

just under general usage in a older cars and servicing i have noticed a difference.

lets say u but the cheapest 1 ,home brand type oils the stuff u get for 15 $ a bottle .

no good .and i heard a lot of the cheap stuff is recycled oil.

change to castrol gtx 2 u will notice the difference.and its not a top end oil only 5 to 8 $ dearer.

hear the difference in the engine noise when running .

difference in oil pressure and when them motor is real hot.

difference in oil usage ,leaks ,burn off .

big difference when u change the oil .

cheap stuff will be burned and black and thin,the dearer stuff will be less burned and black and still thicker .

i run and like the castrol gtx2 is the pick for me after trying about 5 ,20 to 25 $ a bottles type oils.

its was also referred to me by my bro after trying a few too.

running the oil in a motor that second time on the clock and the other has almost 300 thou on it .

some oils cost to much or have to many extras ,that are just not worth it to run in a old worn out motor or not suited .

while i like the castrol oil i don't like there grease.

i went from a standard 2 stroke oil to a no smoke type .cost a cpl $ more but in my little outboard it was good ,very happy with it .nice and clean :)

handy to read and have info that more than just general observation and use from average joe .:)

ty baheath

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BP already have e10 in all there ulp

Shell have just started rolling out there e10 taking the place of regular ulp

they have kept the same yellow colour on the nozzle so be careful when going to fill with regular as the only way of knowing is the sticker on the pump and even that is not clearly marked.

Caltex mostly have ulp and E10 at there sites depending on there storage tanks.

E10 will eat pretty much everything. Some servos have replaced the spouts on the nozzles with nickle plated ones due to the ally being eaten by ethanol. The underground fittings on the new pipe work are made nickle plated for E10 also.

Most servos have a drain vavle inside the box where the tanker drops the fuel

this is conected to a regular ULP tank (MOBIL use there 6000 tanks)

this is where all the spillages go. When rain water gets in to this box it's not uncommon for delivery drivers to just drain it back to the tank.

There are a lot of dodgy tanks out there guys with all sorts of crap inside them.

:angry:

Find a servo thats pretty new or has newish tanks to have a better chance of clean fuel

The fazing out of regular is happening and, although a lot of manufacturers recommend regular the 95 octane will suffice and is usually cleaner out of the hose.

Although be carefull some premiums also contain that nasty E10 stuff just remember read the sticker on the pump. The servos are being sneaky with there marketing so be careful.

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