Fish don't feel pain

[Terry H]

Not sure which species they researched, didn't see any listed in the article I read last night, but the latest 'research' seems to indicate fish can't feel pain.

/>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9797948/Fish-cannot-feel-pain-say-scientists.html

What is interesting is the species they were researching went back to feeding and normal activities minutes after being released. Sounds good. Perhaps if you miss a big solid whack and thump from a good fish, the lesson is just wait a few minutes and have another crack?

[stinkyibis]

It's all pretty common sense. They only have nociceptors. They have tiny little brains. You can catch a fish you just released 5 minutes ago. All fish are different though and if any fish can feel pain in a meaningful way I would say it is the sharks and rays. I doubt it though. Anyone claiming fish feel pain usually has a financial or political motivation (PETA), and in general none of these people understand how humans feel pain, how could they understand fish?

[stinkyibis]

Oh and BTW all the previous experiments that showed fish to feel pain all had serious flaws in them and none of them conclusively showed fish to feel pain at all, rather, those involved in the studies just claimed that it did. All in a sick effort to eventually stop all of us from fishing i think.

[Terry H]

What makes you think Sharks and Rays are different?

[Gregpen]

Maybe they can do more research using the fish as a control and this time study the wbb to see if they feel any pain, in essence they're a very similar species, both typically a little slimy and both with very small brains.....

[benno573]

What makes you think Sharks and Rays are different?

sharks have more teeth and rays are flat. duh...

I don't think any of them feel pain to the same extent humans do. I do think as they are a vertebrate with a central nervous system that there has to be some feeling there, they may not have as highly developed pain receptors as we do but I am sure there is some.

Based on your observations about small brains... I wonder if members of the "bogan" species feel pain... :whistle:

[stinkyibis]

What makes you think Sharks and Rays are different?

All the studies have been focused on small fishes. I think a lot of the experiments in this field have data that is almost worthless as they're often using cultivated goldfish. They're quite different again to our predatory species which we put hooks into.

I haven't seen a lot of studies on pain in sharks and rays, it is mostly concerning their behaviours and feeding etc. and the way they sense things is well studied and remarkable. Most fishes just have such simple brains and they don't have a part like what we have I think in the cerebral cortex that recognises pain. Sharks and rays of the class chondrichthyes I think it is called or whatever they are the cartilaginous fish and I think their brains may be much more developed in the way they behave and hunt so maybe a part of their brain that is capable of recognising pain has developed as well. Just a theory but I doubt they feel pain also.

[Gloomy Samurai]

Oh and BTW all the previous experiments that showed fish to feel pain all had serious flaws in them and none of them conclusively showed fish to feel pain at all, rather, those involved in the studies just claimed that it did. All in a sick effort to eventually stop all of us from fishing i think.

We did this one to death a few months ago.

/>http://www.australianfishing.com.au/forum/general-chat/431867-do-fish-have-a-brain-for-pain

This is a very old story and the reporter article has picked up on (amongst other things) John Rose's work done some years ago at the behest of the American Fisheries Society, a lobby group in support of commercial fishing. That was an unbelievable conflict of interest which damaged Rose’s credibility in the scientific community. Rose’s claim that fish cannot feel pain is regarded as flawed, outdated and outlandish by his peers.

As for Stinky's claims, not true mate. There is plenty of research out there supporting the premise that fish do in fact feel pain (Grandin, Temple (ed.). 2010; Balcombe, Jonathan. 2006.; Purdue.edu [Purdue University]. 2009; Sneddon, L.U., V.A. Braithwaite and M.J. Gentle. 2003; Bekoff, Marc. 2007 just to name a few). Various experiments have been conducted and are continuing with increased sophistication due to the introduction of MRI’s & EEG’s etc. Unfortunately for Stinky, the findings are all supporting fish sentience.

I do think it a bit simplistic though to assume that a fish will react to pain the same way we would.

Cheers

Andrew

[ellicat]

I believe there is no doubt the sea kittens feel a sensation. Whether that could be described as pain the way we perceive pain I find doubtful. Further, I believe that the sensation level differs between species and size.

On the shark matter; white pointers have brains about the size of a man's thumb. Most of that is used for hunting and killing skills as well as detection of prey and then running the body.

I'd also like to know who was behind the studies that Andrew mentioned above. Hard to find independent scientific research anywhere these days on any topic.

The cynic in me suspects any of the powerful green groups could have a fiduciary interest.

I know if I was hooked I would be very compliant with the direction of travel, not so the fish sea kittens

[Terry H]

Clearly the sea kittens are aware they are hooked. You wouldn't get a fight if they didn't.

The question is though, do they feel pain? If they don't, what are they feeling?

There is probably some stress placed on the fish, otherwise they wouldn't flip out and swim the other way as hard as possible.

However, us humans do things conciously and also subconciously. Our brains handle a lot of things without us thinking about it. eg beating our heart. Is this instinct to swim away a subconcious response in a fish (if there is even a concious vs sub-concious comparative in fish!!)? If it is, then the act of catching them probably places little stress at all on the fish.

Truth be told, it's difficult to guess unless we start asking fish "hey mate, how you going?" and start getting a response.

Or is it more akin to throwing a human being in a freezer for 5 minutes, or getting sandblasted on the beach? At the end of these instances, we seem to just bounce back again and act like nothing happened without much mental stress.

Is catch & release the same for fish?

[stinkyibis]

Ok Andrew I will just have to say that's great but if you look at those studies and their findings, and you think their scientific methods are sound and agree with their conclusions, that is fine. I don't, however.

[Bagless]

I think it’s safe to say that all vertebrates feel ‘pain’ to some degree, pain in the sense of a nerve stimulus that tells the animal it is being interfered with, damaged. As to whether scientifically you can prove how that pain is perceived in a fish, well lets just say I don't think fish appreciate being damaged.

I feel the main problem lies in people applying their own perception of pain and in particular the emotional ramifications. The sense of suffering and fear. I think it’s pretty clear that emotionally there is a huge difference between a fish and a human. It’s unlikely a fish would have evolved any benefit in feeling sad about a sore lip or reaching physical exhaustion, or feeling scared that when the sun goes down the sharks come out, or how it might miss it’s birthday next year. I doubt fish worry about very much at all, not in the human context.

There’s nothing wrong with a bit of empathy, in fact we’re all a lot better off for having some, but come off it we’re talking about fish. Do your best to mitigate un-necessary harm, admire it, release it or kill it. Knowing that a fish has a sense of self-preservation is not going to stop me enjoying one of the finest methods of escapism. In fact knowing a fish feels pain to some extent simply reinforces the fact that all anglers have a duty of respect for their catch. Imagine what anglers might do if they thought fish couldn't feel a thing, :whistle:

[Gloomy Samurai]

Beautifully put Bagless. Unfortunately there are anglers out there who seem to think that fish cannot feel pain.

[Eug]

sounds like a good way scam to get some research funding to go fishing

i've caught the same estuary cod three times within a span of 30 minutes out of the same snag.

you would think that if they felt 'pain' as we do then they would swim towards you rather than away from you. i gather that whatever they are feeling is some form of 'awareness' triggering their survival instincts.

[stinkyibis]

I am pretty much with bagless. They feel something that we can only relate to as pain. But it is not pain in which we know, and does not lead to long-term suffering. So in this way I do not believe they feel "pain", they feel something else. Call it whatever you like. Sorta like how some people believe a marriage can only be holy union of a man and woman. Just a word. All depends on definition. I couldn't care less.

I am just a firm believer that they don't feel pain like we do. I would be very happy for a legitimately funded study by leading ichthyologists to come out with conclusive evidence that proves fish feel pain in a significant way, if I thought it would make people care about fish more and encourage better handling practices. The truth is, the only way these things get funded is by groups with the $$ and they're only people with self serving interests. You can make a scientist say what you want to say if you dangle the carrot.

[max pwr]

If I shoved a hook in your mouth and pulled would you pull against it with all of your strength or would you be led by the hook?

[BassTracker]

Oh and BTW all the previous experiments that showed fish to feel pain all had serious flaws in them and none of them conclusively showed fish to feel pain at all, rather, those involved in the studies just claimed that it did. All in a sick effort to eventually stop all of us from fishing i think.

Yep thats what thos dingbats want, to stop this animal cruelty that is fishing, I can take a guess that if you friended these groups of facebook and started a page to pertition the government to introduce muzzels for sharks to stop them bullying and eating defensless fish, they would support it. Its nature for crying out loud, its wild and some people have become too far removed from it.