Ban of Live cattle to Indonesia Petition

[daveylad]

If you saw 4 Corners youll know what its about here is a petition to help stop the live ban of cattle to Indonesia. Supported by the RSPCA.

/>http://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/animals/live-export/ban-live-export/take_action

[Guest]

No Animal should be Cruelly Mistreated and have painful deaths....I do know for some Cultures that its custom to cut the Animals throat and bleed it.....

That video really pissed me off there is NO NEED TO KICK @ HURT IT BEFORE THEY KILL IT... I would so like to take that Rope and bash him with it, see how he likes it...That guy is a %$*#*# Animal

This video has made me feel sick/hate

[ellicat]

It's a bit of a complex issue really.

If I had decided to support the notion of a ban I definitely would not be showing my support through an organisation such as GetUp though - bunch of shallow thinking, childish, freaks imo.

[crazywalrus]

Let me play devil's advocate here, also I have to agree that the images in the 4corners show is abhorrent. I come from a Rural background here and do have a bias towards our industry continuing. Can I make some points.

1. the live cattle & sheep export industry is a very important industry and source of income to our farming community. We must be careful that we do not through the "baby out with the Bath water"

2. How is it that we get so upset about someone cutting a mammals throat and letting them bleed out but we as fisherman are quite happy to cut a fish’s throat or tail and let them bleed out. We are happy to catch a fish on a hook and either drag it into the boat or play it to the boat exhausted for our pleasure.

3. Why are we abhorred buy these images but do not take offense to cattle and sheep dead and dying locked in paddocks in a drought. This is a much slower and in my opinion crueller death than cutting a throat and happens on in far greater numbers.

It is all good for all of us to sit back and make judgements on an industry that is trying to make a buck and also trying to influence the practises in these countries. Banning cattle from Australia will not stop this. They will get their cattle from somewhere else. It would surely be a better process to change the practises where we can. We need to be careful that we do not sit back and judge this without looking at ourselves. Should we ban fishing, ban the gaff and so on. Sorry for being on the other side here. Thanks Ted

[Cheyne_jones]

Well said Ellicat,

Totally agree, GetUp have some wacky ideas.... They wouldnt think twice about supporting closures on fishing in my opinion.

Also, Indonesia is a big part of our meat exports, close that as a whole and we are going to have some very unhappy farmers, who I would rather support than GetUp.

[ellicat]

Agree with Ted except I believe mammals are a bit higher up in the animal order and have a greater developed brain for more human-like perceptions. The other points raised are what makes the issue more complex. If change is wanted then influence (of our local standards) on the perpetrators is more likely where we remain involved.

Also, what about vegetables ?
/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2PlmKWi1DY&NR=1&feature=fvwp

EDIT: PS Ted, what are you doing playing Devil's Advocate ? That's usually my job

[Jords]

Love the vid ellicat.

I believe what is being done IS wrong, but agree with people here that a total ban is definitely not the answer.

As to what the answer is...? I have no clue

[ellicat]

I just watched the vid in the link. Not too nice but not a lot worse than being on the bottom of a rugby maul :pinch:

Unfortunately I also listened to the audio which confirmed my opinion on the GetUp people. :S

[Guest]

Let me play devil's advocate here, also I have to agree that the images in the 4corners show is abhorrent. I come from a Rural background here and do have a bias towards our industry continuing. Can I make some points.

1. the live cattle & sheep export industry is a very important industry and source of income to our farming community. We must be careful that we do not through the "baby out with the Bath water"

2. How is it that we get so upset about someone cutting a mammals throat and letting them bleed out but we as fisherman are quite happy to cut a fish’s throat or tail and let them bleed out. We are happy to catch a fish on a hook and either drag it into the boat or play it to the boat exhausted for our pleasure.

3. Why are we abhorred buy these images but do not take offense to cattle and sheep dead and dying locked in paddocks in a drought. This is a much slower and in my opinion crueller death than cutting a throat and happens on in far greater numbers.

It is all good for all of us to sit back and make judgements on an industry that is trying to make a buck and also trying to influence the practises in these countries. Banning cattle from Australia will not stop this. They will get their cattle from somewhere else. It would surely be a better process to change the practises where we can. We need to be careful that we do not sit back and judge this without looking at ourselves. Should we ban fishing, ban the gaff and so on. Sorry for being on the other side here. Thanks Ted

Well put Ted and i agree with everything you have said above.....But kicking and whipping an animal in the face before killing it is sickening... Gaffing a fish compared to kicking and wipping an animal is a bit different. As ellicat said ''It's a bit of a complex issue''

[RedHerring]

Pretty sure it was put forward to parliment last week.

The government banned only those meatworks deemed dodgy,not a total ban.

AMIEU, pfft pack of shiftys if you ask me, why are they spruking animal welfare then saying its about keeping jobs here? the abotoirs are full of unrepresented union members that do not receive union representation or benefits and they cannot as the union does not represent everyone in the system.

[benobfo]

The sledge hammer is better. Also imo there is no need to name animals when they dont know there name!

[RedHerring]

It's a bit of a complex issue really.

If I had decided to support the notion of a ban I definitely would not be showing my support through an organisation such as GetUp though - bunch of shallow thinking, childish, freaks imo.

They receive large donations from unions.

[daveylad]

Pretty sure it was put forward to parliment last week.

The government banned only those meatworks deemed dodgy,not a total ban.

AMIEU, pfft pack of shiftys if you ask me, why are they spruking animal welfare then saying its about keeping jobs here? the abotoirs are full of unrepresented union members that do not receive union representation or benefits and they cannot as the union does not represent everyone in the system.

They only banned the ones (12) in the video many other in fact most do the same procedures.

[daveylad]

Another point we should consider is that many Australian abotoir workers are losing work because of live trade exprorts, Halal can be done in Australia and then exported overseas giving jobs in Australia, also many farmers some of them the exporters have already stopped their cattle being sent to these abotoirs. Some of the workers on ABC the other night are only working 3 days per week part time, they would love the work.

Kicking the animals was bad, didnt you see them gauging the eyes with a sharp stick, breaking the tails, leaving collapsed animals to be trampled in chutes when they are exhausted and have broken limbs, and allowing the animal to bash its head in on a concrete ramp because it needs to stand to its feet.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the group runnnig the petition they are taking action against this export, as for fishing bans thats another argument and one that is seperate than this one.

[RedHerring]

Another point we should consider is that many Australian abotoir workers are losing work because of live trade exprorts, Halal can be done in Australia and then exported overseas giving jobs in Australia, also many farmers some of them the exporters have already stopped their cattle being sent to these abotoirs. Some of the workers on ABC the other night are only working 3 days per week part time, they would love the work.

Kicking the animals was bad, didnt you see them gauging the eyes with a sharp stick, breaking the tails, leaving collapsed animals to be trampled in chutes when they are exhausted and have broken limbs, and allowing the animal to bash its head in on a concrete ramp because it needs to stand to its feet.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the group runnnig the petition they are taking action against this export, as for fishing bans thats another argument and one that is seperate than this one.

Australian abotoir worker are losing work because the union AMIEU has allowed non union recruitment companies to over run the meat works with boat people and visa workers that get priority over Australian workers.

cheers

[ellicat]

I don't believe we could do it here for the same cost, Davey....i.e. we would price ourselves out of the market. No doubt why the live stock trade is so big and preferred. Also don't forget the ABC show was a biased report to engage people in the way you have been. Did they spend any time interviewing people whose livelihoods are dependent on the industry ?

It really doesn't affect me from day to day. I only think about them when the topic is brought up so I don't rate the issue highly from an emotional point of view to be brutally honest. The bucket of sand is a good way to stay sane. Maybe there's some advice there for those whose heart bleeds for the cows.

Maybe show support for the cows by contacting your local member rather than unwittingly giving support to the moronic group running this petition.

[daveylad]

My last comment on the subject but I find that people with no empathy and are cruel to animals are usually capable of inflicting the smae behaviour on other people. I eat meat and have no probs with humane killing...this is not Humane and I think we will belittle ourself as a civilized country if we condone this trade. All Done all said :whistle:

[crazywalrus]

Kicking the animals was bad, didnt you see them gauging the eyes with a sharp stick, breaking the tails, leaving collapsed animals to be trampled in chutes when they are exhausted and have broken limbs, and allowing the animal to bash its head in on a concrete ramp because it needs to stand to its feet.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the group runnnig the petition they are taking action against this export, as for fishing bans thats another argument and one that is seperate than this one.

I agree with you that the images where terrible however I do not always trust the media to portray the absolute truth. I do not condone the actions of these people at all. I have however seen animals in Australia in the farming arena that are in far greater pain and for longer periods than these poor steers. These individuals in Indonesia are barbaric poorly educated (guessing)people. Isn't it our duty as a world member to educate these people and put requirements on the sale of livestock to them.

To ban them may allow us to sleep well at night however it will make no difference to the practices being undertaken in these countries. I suppose an Australian born and breed cattle is better than a Chile one?? The reality is that this will continue to happen. To ban it will not stop it. We are far better trying to remain in the game and try and have some influence on it.

The argument that we can do it here may well be valid however why is everything being manufactured offshore and processed offshore. The reason it is not done here is that we are too expensive and cannot compete with the wages and costs from other countries. Our mining industry is starting to move the processing offshore so we are now just a quarry for the rest of the world.

We enjoy a much higher standard of living than Indonesia, and with this Standard of living it is propped up by these countries where people are paid a pittance to produce things for us. Without these countries we would not enjoy the lavish living conditions we have. Just imagine paying the full price for a shirt or a shoe created wholly in Australia. Our Standard of living will quickly fall. Is this Standard of living sustainable in the future? I doubt it but hey we all sleep well each night ignorant of the conditions people have to endure elsewhere.

We need to get a grip on reality and understand that not all people and communities live by the same set of rules and morality. We cannot on one hand buy and enjoy the cheap products from overseas and demand that all things are equal between us and them. Hey everybody Utopia is just over the hill. It will never happen. When we sell the Cattle to these countries our responsibility ends. We can however if we try and continue to trade with them educate and influence them. They can ignore us but at least we have tried. The cattle are not the winners if we stop the trade it will just be that they are not Australian.

We need to get real here. No one looses any sleep when many hundreds of thousands of sheep and cattle die each time we have a prolonged drought. Have you guys seen the images of these animals and the bleached bones of the dead cattle. This agricultural land is marginal land at best and cannot be farmed every year due to lack of rainfall. Due to our Rural heritage, farming practices, and land ownership this cruelty will continue to happen. Do I see a petition to ban farming on these marginal lands? No!

If everybody can sleep better at night with the knowledge that they signed a petition then go for it. But we are meat eaters and in an agricultural enterprise we cannot eliminate animal cruelty. If people can feel better that fish are not smart enough to feel pain than believe it to make yourselves feel better. The reality is we are further up the food chain and we will all need to get a grip on reality. Finally who are we to enforce expensive meat on Indonesia that we process and package here in Australia just so we can feel better about ourselves. A person getting a $1 AUD a day cannot afford to buy Australian processed meat. Sorry for the Rant but being from this background and training I have strong and sometimes unpopular views on this and sorry if I repeat myself through this.

[Keen-as-fisho]

Too right Ted. Banning livestock exports will simply destroy another industry. Just like what will happen over on strady with the sand mines and four wheel driving/tourism. People/governments don't seem to realise if you ban this and ban that, charge more for this add more tax to that then everything STOPS unless your bill gates or something. Instead of banning the export of live stocks they should maybe cull it here then send it, i don't know but there's gotta be a better option. And another thing animals are just that animals regardless if its a fish or a cow, if they could talk then we would know how they feel.(I am not saying I like animal cruelty even if they are due to be slaughtered).

[buckat list]

MY wife and I also own a farm and produce cattle, I was sickened by the 4 corners report of the cattle treatment in Indonesia but I think that MLA who gets a fortune from the producers in Australia need to train and monitor these operators till they are up to scratch.

Banning the live export of cattle would destroy lots of peoples livelehoods and the market would be filled by someone else.

At the end of the day we eat meat and they still end up dead but it should be done humanally, the indonesians would not buy chilled beef from us as they cant afford the killing costs.

So do not sign any petition to ban live exports , but education on our morals should be passed onto the Indonesians.

Warwick

Buckat List Fishing Charters.

[Gad]

Some facts that I found on the Australian live export market(these are 2006 figures)…worth something like $800 million per annum to Australia….It creates 12,000 Australian weekly pay packets…most of the population of countries that source our live exports have limited (if any) refridgeration,so there fore the stock is slaughtered for virtually immediate consumption…..

As mentioned in other posts, by banning Australian live exports these countries would not buy preslaughtered meat from us, they would just find another country to deal with.

The answer lies not in demanding the Government ban the live exports, but in demanding that our Government seek the Indonesian Government to oversee/govern the slaughter process of our live exports in accordance with the international animal welfare guidelines established by the World Animal Health Organisation.

Australia temporarily suspended live exports to Egypt in the mid 2000`s,due to similar practices in the treatment of Australian live exports.

Below is an extract of the Egyptian deal.

In October 2006 the Australian Government recommenced live animal exports to Egypt on the basis that two Memoranda of Understanding had been signed by the two governments. The principal one is the MOU on Handling and Slaughter of Australian Live Animals. This MOU requires that international animal welfare guidelines (but not standards) established by the World Animal Health Organisation, known as OIE ,apply to the handling of Australian livestock, namely, sheep and cattle. In addition, there were some specific handling requirements for Australian cattle....

The OIE is based in Paris and represents 167 member countries, including Egypt. In 2006 the OIE adopted 4 animal welfare Guidelines under its Terrestrial Animal Health Code. The relevant sections of this code relate to ‘international animal welfare standards’ and include guidelines on the transport of animals by land and sea, and on the slaughter of animals.

If you want to petition the governments about animals,how about a petition demanding animals like ferguson,fardon and other cretins of their ilk have the Haal treatment.

[robin]

I dont support the ban, but i do support that we seek a better people to handle this, forget that they are cows for 1 min, and imagin its all of us in this club being rounded up and shiped out to cop a beating before being put to death, im very sure none of us would like that, esp if we are there just to make a profit for someone. There has to be a way to manage this better, maybe don't ship live cattle, (im not in the industry so i don't know why we ship out live cattle).

The points to keep live cattle exports to Indonesia is yes it keeps the farmers in business, and i support that side, as they are some of the hardest workers in this country and its there life, Plus the amount of tax our gov gets from it, if the tax income gets less then our tax will go up.

Down side is that the cows have to suffer, and thats pretty sad and heart breaking to see and hear.

I just hope that with people thinking how cruel this is, i hope that we are all doing our part, by getting farm raised eggs rather then caged eggs, find a good butcher that has ethical standards and know were to good meet that has not been bashed to death, with fish kill them as quick as possible.

Thats all from me

[Zim man]

calling the cow Brian to humanize him and make him appeal to a wider audience is the same thing as peta calling fish sea kittens to get kids to identify fish in a different light to support Petas cause.

i never watched the whole video only half (it was disgusting, but i still eat meat ) , it was and is wrong what happened to that animal. stopping the exports is a knee jerk reaction that is all emotion and no thought. someone else will sell cows there. like others have said, put pressure for better killing procedures as the economic rational for doing it here is on a par with carbon tax.

what made me more angry was the clear fact that the people behind the video were trying to play me by calling him Brian (i thought he looked more like a Harold myself), to humanize the animal to get greater support for their aim. i make my own decisions, and don`t take kindly to that kind of marketing to get things done.

mini rant over

[chaujern]

poor cattle farmers ... don't think they were compensated for loss of income ...

imagine if someone trundled over to your workplace and said "here's your wages for the period, less 20%, poor economic conditions" .. you'd be pretty disappointed after all the blood and sweat you've put in ...

yes, its likely that large corporations were the ones responsible for exporting live cattle and who cares right? ... well their employees and job opportunities ...

knee jerks ...

[RedHerring]

The Government did a blanket ban this morning, on all live export to Indonesia.

Until the meatworks are up to standard.

In reality this could be better for everyone in the long run, it would be pointless in maintaining export with a country that has such poor facilities, it would be a disaster waiting to happen.

[crazywalrus]

bloody joke. Maybe the pollies should have a ban imposed on their income. It would not happen. One question what makes an Australian Steer better than say one from Chile? Nothing, so it has made no difference for animal cruelty. Idiots. Also they have cattle on the wharfs at the moment. I bet the conditions for them are pretty poor. When they made a knee jerk reaction to ban live sheep exports they had to pointlessly destroy a lot of sheep caught in transport. I hate this government. Not an intelligent individual amongst them and those turn coat independent may the die a miserable political death. This ridiculous ban effects people like their constituents.

[ellicat]

:ohmy: Wow. Now we will have 520,000 more cattle that wont be heading to Indonesia per year. That's a lot of greenhouse gases to contribute to our environment. :pinch: :whistle: I wonder if they will factor that into the "carbon pricing" models :dry:

[RedHerring]

I am pretty sure it's only temporary, it would be interesting to see what measures they took to ensure all the export farmers are not left high and dry.

[crazywalrus]

I am pretty sure it's only temporary, it would be interesting to see what measures they took to ensure all the export farmers are not left high and dry.

I very much doubt if there would be any compensation for the farmers

[Zim man]

compensation? more like a cattle levy to go with the flood levy to pay for stuff. it vexes me that we go from one knee jerk decision to another.

[daveylad]

This is a Temp ban not a permenant one knowing this (crap) Govt Agree with you there Bri they will be breaking their necks to end it sooner rather than latert. As for the gas Our environment is their environment greenhouse gas here or there is the same, Latest reports are that the cattle people involved back the Govt strategy for a temporary ban. :pinch:

[RedHerring]

compensation? more like a cattle levy to go with the flood levy to pay for stuff. it vexes me that we go from one knee jerk decision to another.

Hardly knee jerk, the AMIEU has been pushing this for at least the last 12 months and most probably longer, it was only twelve months ago I first read their newsletter.

Although their argument is also based on loss of jobs to overseas workers.

[shortie]

weather the cattle come from australia or else where the same practise will take place over there.

The only thing that will hurt in this is the farmers.

The petition is a waste of time.

[daveylad]

I reckon it is now the ban seems to be on without the need for it.

[RedHerring]

I reckon it is now the ban seems to be on without the need for it.

Well better oversea facilitie mean more efficiency, more capacity and more demand.

do you really want to invest in some filthy crap ridden hole with no standards?

[ellicat]

The anecdotes are coming in already.

I was watching APAC today and listening to an interview with the government dude who is responsible (don't know his name as it is a rare thing for them to talk about a topic outside the cities :whistle: ) and the interviewer asked about compensation for the industry that has had the rug pulled from under it.

He cited the case of an exporter that had just paid $2/kg for 2000 cattle to be exported. With the governments decision he now has 2000 cattle worth $0.80/kg. The question was what compensation would there be. The answer was "I'd like to have discussions with the industry, but we did what the community expects us to do. The pictures on 4 Corners were terrible." or words to that effect. The interviewer asked twice more about the compensation but didn't receive an answer.

Knee-jerk decision. Thought and consultation should have preceded any "indefinite suspension" no matter how long they had been aware and thinking about the issue. In fact it makes it even worse that it came so quickly and with no notice if they have been contemplating the move for any period of time.

[Keen-as-fisho]

I heard on the radio yesterday that the Indonesian government, if the Aus government lift the Ban, were not going to accept any more cattle from Australia anymore. Obvious I thought.

[Keen-as-fisho]

It's called business mate. Thats how the economy runs. Sometimes you need to overlook were your exports are going wheter its livestock or socks.

[RedHerring]

I heard on the radio yesterday that the Indonesian government, if the Aus government lift the Ban, were not going to accept any more cattle from Australia anymore. Obvious I thought.

We have top class beef, some of the best in the world.

Doubt they will ban us.

[Zim man]

I heard on the radio yesterday that the Indonesian government, if the Aus government lift the Ban, were not going to accept any more cattle from Australia anymore. Obvious I thought.

We have top class beef, some of the best in the world.

Doubt they will ban us.

Quality don't count for shite when realibilty of supply, interference from suppliers and costs are questionable. If they could get it cheaper from somewhere elsevthey would get it. Plus 3rd world countries are highly unlikely to buy shiploads of the best beef for the mass population. Everything is about economics