Green Zones to the North -Vacuum Cleaners to the South

[Gad]

Taken from FW email newsletter

Rec Fishers Pull Pin on Super Trawler Working Group

20 Aug 2012

PRIME Minister Julia Gillard has failed to allay anglers' fears over the arrival of the FV Margiris as the federal Government comes under increasing pressure to ban super trawlers from Australian waters.

According to a report in today's Sydney Morning Herald, angling groups led by the Australian Recreational Fishing Foundation (ARFF) have pulled out of a working group set up by the Government to discuss concerns over the trawler's industrial-scale fishing methods and proposed quota levels.

ARFF spokesman Mark Nikolai said yesterday that anglers decided to pull out of the working group after a review of the science behind the massive trawler's quotas raised more questions than answers.

According to the Herald, the Dutch-owned Margiris is being brought to Australia to trawl offshore between NSW and Western Australia for 19,000 tonnes of small pelagics. The venture is underpinned by a jack mackerel quota that the Australian Fisheries Management Authority (AFMA) controversially doubled to 10,000 tonnes on the request of the trawler's operators.

The Prime Minister weighed into the debate and defended the working group against the call from the independent MP Andrew Wilkie to delay approval for the trawler until the Commonwealth Ombudsman completes inquiries into the quota decision.

\

The ARFF decision to strongly oppose the arrival of the super trawler now leaves the PM exposed on one of the biggest environmental issues of recent times.

Nikolai said detailed discussions in the working group showed basic knowledge of the fishery was lacking.

''Recreational fishers call on [the Fisheries Minister, Joe] Ludwig to not allow industrial-scale fishing operations to occur in the small pelagic fishery and address the significant public concerns surrounding the risks of local area depletion on fish stocks,'' he said.

At the National Recreational Fishing Conference held on the Gold Coast at the weekend, Senator Ludwig said he was ''a strong defender'' of AFMA despite the growing controversy over the super trawler issue.

Also at the conference, angling leaders spoke of the political deal-making and scientific whitewashing that has marked this super trawler issue. In a paper presented to the conference RecFish founder Graham Pike said:

"For what reason should the federal government stop the Margiris? Simple, for the same reason the previous federal government stopped the entry of the foreign-owned super trawler, Veronica, eight years ago. That was after a national public campaign led by Recfish Australia made Australians aware that the foreign vessel would be attacking our small pelagic fish stocks before we really knew the size and biology of their populations."

"It's the same situation now. The decision to double the quota of small pelagic fishes to economically justify the entry of the Margiris was based on very limited, old and unreliable data, and a perverted process."

"I know because I have been involved in the management of the Small Pelagic Fishery for 12 years and I represent Australian recreational fishers and the charter fishing industry on the Australian FisheryManagement Authority's SPF Resource Assessment Group."

[Gad]

Super Trawler Arrives

The controversial Margiris super trawler docked this morning in Port Lincoln South Australia and is expected to stay there for five days for re-flagging, repairs, and Customs checks - all carried out behind a permanent security fence on the city's main wharf.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-30/greenpeace-tries-to-block-margiris-from-docking/4232548

[ellicat]

Did you catch the interview with Andrew Wankie yesterday having a spack attack over the AFMA decision on quotas ? It was on ABC as well.

[Uthrax]

the wowser group is seeking moneys to put their add in papers. they have a pic of the sister-ship's net with a tear spilling dolphins....

/>https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/marine/stop-the-super-trawler/stop-the-super-trawler?t=dXNlcmlkPTUxNTcwNyxlbWFpbGlkPTk0NQ==#

[Thirstyman]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/labor-to-ban-super-trawler-abel-tasman-from-australian-waters/story-fndo20i0-1226471683034

I dont really understand this, what does any of it mean if it has already been fishing and still may resume? Just something to shut us up? Are they hoping people only read the headline?

[aussie123]

The government is sitting today to pass new laws to ban the trawler for up to 2 years so the proper scientific studies can be done on the fish stocks and the impacts that this vessel might have of the virgin stock levels.

It's about time the government got the balls to step in and do something.

lot of people do not realise that this ship is now based here in QLD and not in Tasmania like first proposed.

[Gary_C]

I'd be interested in your guys' opinions on the government's likelihood of passing the legislation.

TBH, I don't follow the AU politicians or their records as closely as I do the ones in the US.

Do you think they are going to push through the 2 year ban or is it smoke and mirrors?

[ellicat]

Essentially Tony Burke is introducing legislation that will relieve him from having to make a politically unpopular decision (whichever way it goes) and leave it to Greg Hunt to make in 2 years time. Master stroke :whistle: .....and if you watched the Senate Question Time yesterday it is quite a turnaround.

If the new lego doesn't get passed then the boat will start fishing under heavy regulation.

[Gary_C]

Essentially Tony Burke is introducing legislation that will relieve him from having to make a politically unpopular decision (whichever way it goes) and leave it to Greg Hunt to make in 2 years time. Master stroke :whistle: .....and if you watched the Senate Question Time yesterday it is quite a turnaround.

If the new lego doesn't get passed then the boat will start fishing under heavy regulation.

Kicking the can down the road. Now THAT is a political move I can understand.

[ellicat]

I'd be interested in your guys' opinions on the government's likelihood of passing the legislation.

TBH, I don't follow the AU politicians or their records as closely as I do the ones in the US.

Do you think they are going to push through the 2 year ban or is it smoke and mirrors?

The legislation should pass the lower house with the help of the Green and 2 Independents and most likely the Coalition as well. Provided it is straight forward and does not endeavour to attach some other sneaky bit of legislation by attachment.

The senate should pass it similarly. However if the Coalition does not support it then the Greens would have to play ball which may or may not be straight forward. The Greens may want to add some other ludicrous opportunism and foolishly stand their ground and not support without their bit as they have done plenty of times before.

[Hartsford]

Well Here is Today's News at Brisbane Times

/>http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/environment/conservation/super-trawler-plans-torpedoed-by-cabinet-20120911-25po0.html

I'll wait for the updates for news of it finally going through Federal Parliament in Canberra..

a Two Year ban

[Bi_polar]

It's not over! The coalition could put a stop to Mr Burkes plans to change the law which would give him the power to not only shut down the Super trawler but recreational fishing. We need to be careful that we are not blinded by the Super trawler dramas and allow the government the power to shut down any kind of fishing. Click on the link and check it out.

/>http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-12/government-facing-roadblock-over-super-trawler-laws/4256344

Taken from Mark Berg Fishing

[ellicat]

After informing myself as much as possible,I think it should be allowed to go ahead.

Tony Burke has disgraced himself again in typical ALP fashion.

[darcy]

I reckon its awesome how many people made a stink about the trawler but i think it is going to happen eventually, at least its stopped for a short while. imagine the super trawler on the bottom of the ocean....what a mad wreck it would make. I dont understand the camera under the boat it wont stop dead by catch it will just enable people to watch dead by catch?? Does anyone know what country/s the fish were to be sold/distributed to??

[Gad]

has anyone actually read the context of what Burke & Co wants to legislate.

I haven`t,but this from the opposition has me curious:

"The bill is a Trojan horse now that we've actually seen the words," manager of Opposition business Christopher Pyne told the ABC.

"It allows the Minister to ban any fishing in Australia of any kind - recreational fishing, charter fishing, commercial fishing - on the basis of the Minister deciding it has a "social impact".

source:
/>http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-12/government-facing-roadblock-over-super-trawler-laws/4256344

[ellicat]

I reckon its awesome how many people made a stink about the trawler but i think it is going to happen eventually, at least its stopped for a short while. imagine the super trawler on the bottom of the ocean....what a mad wreck it would make. I dont understand the camera under the boat it wont stop dead by catch it will just enable people to watch dead by catch?? Does anyone know what country/s the fish were to be sold/distributed to??

You've got it all wrong darcy. Some research will show you where your glaring errors are.

[ellicat]

I'd be interested in your guys' opinions on the government's likelihood of passing the legislation.

TBH, I don't follow the AU politicians or their records as closely as I do the ones in the US.

Do you think they are going to push through the 2 year ban or is it smoke and mirrors?

The legislation should pass the lower house with the help of the Green and 2 Independents and most likely the Coalition as well. Provided it is straight forward and does not endeavour to attach some other sneaky bit of legislation by attachment.

The senate should pass it similarly. However if the Coalition does not support it then the Greens would have to play ball which may or may not be straight forward. The Greens may want to add some other ludicrous opportunism and foolishly stand their ground and not support without their bit as they have done plenty of times before.

"The bill is a Trojan horse now that we've actually seen the words," manager of Opposition business Christopher Pyne told the ABC.

"It allows the Minister to ban any fishing in Australia of any kind - recreational fishing, charter fishing, commercial fishing - on the basis of the Minister deciding it has a "social impact".

Tony Burke has disgraced himself again in typical ALP fashion.

:whistle:

[Seiran]

:woohoo: Good news for Australian fisheries.

/>http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/super-trawler-ban-bill-passes-house-20120913-25upf.html

And with a 12 month sunset clause in place to ensure the new law is not abused.

[ellicat]

Not good news at all.

The legislation is dangerous.

The change was based on no facts. It is a disgrace and a shame on Australia.

[tugger]

Fantastic result good to see the little aussie trawlers will have a win here over a big foriegn ship what else would any australian have wanted

[ellicat]

Tugger, The facts are this ship will have zero effect on the existing fleet.

It wont even fish the same waters.

It's produce is not fished for by any existing Aussie operator.

It's efforts will produce fish fit for human consumption and will not be turned into fish meal etc as is the case with the existing operators.

Facts count so much more than the understandable populist wrong opinion.

[tugger]

The facts are fish migrate to follow food sorces and this ship will be fishing not to far from where current aussie trawlers operate now its one thing googling so called facts and its another seeing first hand thats its not far in reallity for these pelagic fish to travel they'll just b e stopped by this monster ship before reaching tassie waters.

This ship can encircle whole schools and wipe them out these are the food source of many large preditory fish they will be targeting why are we wanting these foreign operators to come here if these is even a small chance of doing harm to our wild fish stocks.

I cant understand how any australian would support it most of the money for it all will go overseas

[JarrydA]

I think its great news. Even if this single ship has little impact on the overall system (which its yet to be proven if it does or not), it is setting a precedent. With this ship allowed, it will prompt more to come. Which i think is the real danger. Also allowing these foreign owned ships, selling to foreign markets, is taking away business for our local fisherman. They say its providing 50 jobs to locals? Whats 50 jobs?, Good old cambell just cut 14000.

[ellicat]

The facts are fish migrate to follow food sorces and this ship will be fishing not to far from where current aussie trawlers operate now its one thing googling so called facts and its another seeing first hand thats its not far in reallity for these pelagic fish to travel they'll just b e stopped by this monster ship before reaching tassie waters.

This ship can encircle whole schools and wipe them out these are the food source of many large preditory fish they will be targeting why are we wanting these foreign operators to come here if these is even a small chance of doing harm to our wild fish stocks.

I cant understand how any Australian would support it most of the money for it all will go overseas

No Google involved Mark. Google was too hard to research through with too much clutter of idiotic green groups spreading unsubstantiated lies (as is usual). When and where did you see this rare type of trawler operate ? There'd be some good stories to share from that.

To rebut your points 1 by 1 -

This ship would have been fishing way out of range of the existing Aussie fleet. Fishing in waters not fished before. It has facilities onboard to immediately freeze the catch in A1 condition - something the existing fleet cannot do ! That is why the Australian company hired it. It is why it's catch is human consumption grade and not intended to be turned to low grade fish meal.

The fish they are targeting are not fish currently targeted.

The estimated total biomass of the target species is 380 000 tonnes

The quota for this ship was 18 000 tonnes i.e. 4.7%

4.7% is deemed scientifically to be a sustainable catch rate.

The huge net they use has a "state of the art" contraption that guides unintended by-catch to the front of the net where they escape through the purpose built hatch. All this is monitored by under water cameras in and around the net.

As for the seal furphy - seals are a coastal species not even found in the waters to be fished.

The Australian company hired this vessel to do a job that cannot be done by the existing Aussie fleet. It will process the catch on board and export the product. The same as any exporter would where they require a machine that was made overseas to do the job. Seeing as the manufacturing in Australia is next to non-existent this is very common.

The process to allow this ship to come here including all the regulations and restrictions being put in place took 7 years. The owners have had discussions with the government right up until GetUp started their Twitter campaign of the ignorant and emotional, at which point the government faltered and caved in to populism once again. The same as they did with the live cattle debacle. This ship was here and had complied with everything required of it. The government was in possession of all the scientific backing to allow it to go ahead. It is a disgrace that this decision was made so late and on a political only basis.

I have no problem with a government swaying to popular opinion where that opinion is correct and justified. I believe that's not the case here. In this case I believe the government (Burke and Ludwig) should have stood up and said this is going ahead as we a have taken 5 years to consider it and believe the science is in and we are satisfied all will be sweet. Well they were doing that right up until this week. Then they back-flipped and said hang on we no longer believe in ourselves.

Jarryd, This is such a disgrace it is unlikely to happen until we have a decision maker different to the one's who mucked this up.

[ellicat]

I just merged the 3 threads about this thing. It is an interesting read from the start to here.

Another piece of information is that the net used by the trawler is used in mid water - i.e. not the bottom and not the top.

Therefore the ocean floor would only be minimally (if at all) affected. The sea birds should be pretty safe too except at the time it was being pulled out I imagine.

Anyone having second thoughts on their support or otherwise ?

[fishingnut]

Would you be happier bobby if the trawler was allowed ? are you pro trawler? I haven't got too involved in this trawler debacle as I'm not too fussed on it, I would rather it "went away" out of sight out of mind.

[ellicat]

Yep. Let it do what they agreed to let it do.

To do otherwise is clearly unethical from a business and government point of view. There are no substantiated facts that I've seen to justify breaking the approval at the 11th hour. The approval process has been in train for 7 years. They wait until the ship has travelled half way 'round the World and is about to embark on it's mission then pull the rug.

I can't understand why any Australian would even try to defend the late decision.

[fishingnut]

I honestly cant pass comment as I don't know the full facts, Although I do admit Id rather it be gone but that's a purely heart felt decision

[tugger]

Glad its got the boot other wise it just another foreign ship to plunder our coast

[ellicat]

ROFL

What, You don't even have the courtesy to respond ?

You'll have to lend me that blind fold of yours so I can take a walk down your Fantasy Lane.

[DeckHead]

Just joining the conversation now the only thing i can see that would worry me is by-catch.... thats it. I'm not exactly sure how many km this beast has to be away from shore to operate but aslong as its no where near me or any other bastard what harm (if properly regulated) could it do?

[tugger]

Sorry i didnt respond good enough for you but i had to get to work and could only give a short answer to this ship my response still is you are still wrong Brian this ship vaccums up whole schools of fish that is part of the food chain for many large preditory fish, seals penguins etc to survive on. This science is flawed that you are sprouting Brian as they dont know how this qouter will effect the ecology down there it has never been done before they invented the amount for the sake of this ship. The so called independent board set up to decide this qouter had the company head on it. Imagine the amount of fish this shipp will need to make a profit it will devistate the fish species it is targetting and the knock on effect to other species will be just as bad.

this large foreign vaccum cleaner that has pileged other countries before it set its sites on australia to support this ship would be unaustralian

ROFL

What, You don't even have the courtesy to respond ?

You'll have to lend me that blind fold of yours so I can take a walk down your Fantasy Lane.

[tugger]

Some old news reports

The Margiris super trawler is due to arrive in South Australia today, amid renewed claims the ship's fishing quota "isn't worth the paper it's written on", because one of the ship's owners helped to set it.

The Margiris will berth in Port Lincoln for a five-day visit which will include re-flagging, repairs, and Customs checks - all carried out behind a permanent security fence on the city's main wharf.

Audio: Super trawler steaming into controversy (AM)

The Federal Government is yet to give final approval for the giant trawler to take 18,000 tonnes of baitfish from Australia's southern fisheries.

But the massive Dutch-owned trawler has been at the centre of controversy ever since its move to the Southern Ocean was confirmed, with conservation groups saying it will devastate fish stocks.

We asked if the Margiris should be given approval to fish in Australian waters: read your comments below.

And today there are fresh questions about the decision to let the Margiris fish in Australian waters, after Lateline revealed more details about the involvement of one of the ship's owners, Gerry Geen, in setting the ship's quotas.

Independent MP Andrew Wilkie says Mr Geen was improperly allowed to remain at a meeting on March 26 where the quotas were finalised.

And he says that means the quota is "not worth the paper it's written on".

Destructive or sustainable?

The size of the Margiris, now named Abel Tasman, has sparked fears it will decimate fish stocks.

But Australia's fishing regulator says the trawler's quota is based on sound science.

So will the super trawler devastate a region, or will its catch be a drop in the ocean?

ABC News Online takes a look at both sides of the debate here.

"What we have now effectively is a quota that has been unlawfully determined ultimately at this point in the process," he said.

"The Fisheries Administration Act requires that he should have then left that teleconference, or the committee should have very deliberately given him approval to remain a participant or at least an observer in that teleconference," he said.

"There is no evidence that the committee gave him that sort of approval.

"And when I've challenged the Fisheries Management Authority (AFMA) on this, they say, well, they don't actually take the act literally, that they've developed some sort of in-house workaround arrangement and that's fine by them.

"But this calls into question really not just the quota relevant to the super trawler, but the whole way the Fisheries Management Authority goes about its business."

In a written reply to Mr Wilkie, AFMA did confirm Mr Geen was present in the meeting.

"Given the expertise-based nature of the membership it is axiomatic that such a literal reading of these sections could preclude almost all members from most decisions," the letter reads.

"For the meeting of 26 March 2012, the SEMAC Chair asked Mr Geen to respond to questions from the other members during the discussion regarding total allowable catches."

Mr Wilkie says members from another key AFMA committee that fed information into the quota decision have claimed their concerns were not represented or recorded.

"Not only do you have the proponent for the super trawler as a member of both committees, you've got other members of these committees who are saying their interests are not being represented," he said.

AFMA declined to be interviewed by Lateline, but in a written response said: "AFMA is confident that the total allowable catch limits have been lawfully made by the AFMA Commission. The AFMA Commission is an independent and expert group."

But the Commonwealth ombudsman is investigating the process that AFMA used to decide quotas for the Margiris.

"Either that's the end of the matter and the boat turns around and goes back to Europe, or AFMA goes through its processes again and this time gets it right, this time acts lawfully and complies with the Act," Mr Wilkie said.

Photo: Margiris target: A school of jack mackerel (Flickr: Richard Ling)

Meanwhile an independent analyst who reviewed the science that was the basis for the quotas claims the study is fundamentally flawed.

A letter obtained by Lateline shows Mr Geen's company, Seafish Tasmania, tried to get the quota for jack mackerel doubled to 10,000 tonnes.

It is believed that to break even, the Margiris needs to process a total of 15,000 tonnes of pelagic fish.

"The resulting increase in the jack mackerel east total allowable catch would be sufficient to support the proposed operation of a freezer trawler by Seafish Tasmania," the letter reads.

Independent analyst Andrew Wadsley, from Australian Risk Audit, has questioned the validity of the quota being increased for research purposes.

"Seafish Tasmania have put in a research program, but I have to admit, it looks very much like a Japanese whaling expedition," he said.

In a written response, Mr Geen said he had acted lawfully and declared all his interests to AFMA.

"Seafish is not concerned about the ombudsman's scrutiny of the matter. We believe it is an administrative matter between the ombudsman and AFMA," he said.

Meanwhile conservationists are vowing to keep up their fight against the giant ship.

South Australian Greens leader Mark Parnell says the visit to Port Lincoln is a chance for Australians to see first-hand the scope of the 142-metre ship's operations.

"I think it will be a wake-up call when people see the size of this ship - the idea of sucking so much life out of the sea in a single go should fill people with dread."

But David Ellis from Port Lincoln's tuna industry has backed the super trawler.

"This vessel is fishing on behalf of an Australian company - I believe it is welcome here," he said.

[tugger]

Previously named as the Atlantic Star this is the same ship just renamed the Abel Tasman now and i'll bring you more about this huge vacum cleaner

Atlantic Star Factory Trawler Loses Battle to Fish U.S. Waters

September 9, 1999 | In a victory for fish and fishermen, the Atlantic Star, one of the huge factory trawlers eyeing the East Coast herring and mackerel fisheries, has called it quits. By trading in her U.S. flag for a Dutch flag and changing her name to the Aneellas Ilena, the Atlantic Star has surrendered its right to fish in U.S. waters. Since the passage of the Magnuson Fisheries Conservation and Management Act in 1976, foreign flagged vessels are prohibited from fishing U.S. waters.

“In changing its name and flag,†noted Niaz Dorry, Greenpeace oceans specialist, “the Atlantic Star’s owners have acknowledged the clear message that the fisherman and the public see no place for factory trawlers in New England – or U.S. – waters.â€

Reacting to growing concern about the history of factory trawlers and the destruction they caused on the Georges and the Grand Banks in the ’60s and ’70s, fishing communities and Greenpeace in 1996 began fighting to keep those huge ocean nomads from returning to the region.

“A very big hurrah!†said Captain Tom Brancaleone, a Gloucester fisherman for the past 42 years. “So many different sectors of the Gloucester region’s fishing communities came together to stop the return of factory trawlers. We knew that all of our work to save the fisheries in this region would be for naught if factory trawlers were to fish indiscriminately and take the food of the very fish we are trying to save, especially cod, haddock, and other groundfish on Georges Bank.â€

Factory trawlers, such as the Atlantic Star, have been eyeing the herring and mackerel fisheries as the next place to plunder. These fisheries are essential prey for Atlantic Cod, Haddock, Bluefin Tuna, Striped Bass, and many other commercially valuable species that are considered overfished or recovering from overfishing. In addition, herring and mackerel are the food for endangered and threatened marine mammals such as the Fin and Humpback whales and the Harbor Porpoise, as well as many seabirds. Industrial-scale fishing vessels, such as factory trawlers, represent the smallest percentage of fishing vessels globally yet they are responsible for most of the global fish catches; the most bycatch (fish and other sea creatures thrown back dead); the least number of people employed; and the least amount of revenue generated for local communities.

A management plan for herring is in the making, but it requires more protection for the other marine animals that rely on herring as their primary food supply. The public can submit comments to the National Marine Fisheries Service by September 27, 1999, on the proposed herring management plan.

[tugger]

More old news articles

The FV Margiris Quota: a case of Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics

Dr Andrew Wadsley, Principal, Australian Risk Audit

10.09.12 4:39 am

19 comments

Download below a spreadsheet that implements the statistical analysis suggested by the “Hidden truth behind the quota …†poster (First published on TT here) ... and republished below.

The results are not exactly the same: the analysis here calculates a 2002 jack mackerel spawning mass between 25,000 tonne and 35,000 tonne depending on which egg-incubation model is used.

Nevertheless, these numbers are seriously lower than the 140,000 tonne given as the “best-estimate†by the fishery scientists and the IMAS 2011 study.

The simple message is that the statistical analysis presented in the IMAS study is badly flawed. The bootstrap histograms for the P0 parameter are bimodaI, showing undue influence of a single high egg-density outlier on the estimation of mean egg abundance.

I doubt there is a single statistician, economist, biologist or social scientist in Australia – those people who use statistics in their day job – who, looking at these diagnostics, would support the results of the IMAS analysis, let alone base the quota for the jack mackerel fishery on it.

Approving the proposed TAC of 10,100 tonne, when the recommended precautionary quota should be no greater than 2,250 tonne (and most likely less), would be like legislating that pi = 3.

If you haven’t already done so, email your State Senators now, before it’s too late, and tell them the plain truth: that the ‘statistics’ behind the quota is wrong. Senators will vote on what the Margiris is allowed to trawl for on Monday. Please contact them today.

[tugger]

So why has this huge vacum cleaner moved or moved on from europe around the north sea then america then the south pacific is it because it keeps overfishing and goverments say enough is enough and kick it out, my money would be on that this ship (huge vacum cleaner) has worn out its welcome all over the world and there is no place for this type of ship (huge vacum cleaner)

I thought you would have responded by now or is it you are busy with something else Brian or is it you know you are wrong and cant respond with any more so called truths and undisputible facts

With all nof this i dont mean to offend

[JarrydA]

Im surprised the ship hasnt sunk yet, considering its bad luck to change the name of a ship, and this one has changed its name a hundred times by the sounds of it.

[tugger]

Still waiting to take a walk down your fantsy lane Brian, what no response yet, cough snicker cough snicker is this how it goes on?

[tugger]

On further investigation Seafish Tasmania is a dutch owned company and this ship (huge vaccum cleaner) is also dutch owned and guess what they are the same dutch company and the catch will be exported wow we'll get alot of benifit out of that

[ellicat]

Only just got up Mark. Had to read the important stuff first.

I think from what I've seen it will be a doddle to rubut the stuff you have offered, but family time comes first on a Saturday.

You'll have to wait, just like I did.