Jumping Spanish

[Neil Stratford]

I took my brother for a mackerel fish this morning , turned up at the ramp a little late due to road work delays on the Bruce Highway , basically all the way from the Pine River to the Caloundra turn off . Got to my first spot to see another boat get a Spanish , we trolled around for about 20minutes without seeing to many exciting things on the sounder , so decided to move on . We then came across a big school of long tails so I popped a stick bait into them twice and hooked up , took me a good 10minutes to get it up to the boat only to see it get swallowed whole next to the boat - very easy release and bye bye stick bait. Moved on again and found a big school of Spanish .  My brother took the first strike . It got sharked , we then had a double hook up , both got sharked . We then moved again . At this stage my brother decided to stop fishing and just drive the boat . I then managed to get a Spanish onto the deck . Lost 5 more to sharks , and a few more to broken wire,  broken hooks simply by going too hard on them. Then surprisingly got another one on the deck and mission was complete with a good feed.
We had two very dramatic shark attacks today , pity I didn’t get them on video . First one was a Spano completing a big cart wheeling  jump , followed seconds later by a  high spiral leap , only to hit the water and get absolutely destroyed on the surface. The second one went for a bit of a run turned around and charged the boat , it then jumped about 10 feet from the back of the boat and slammed into the stern next to the motor, very close to where I was perched , as soon as he hit the water next to the motor he got smashed , a couple more inches higher and he would have been on the deck . We then decided we’d had enough and went home defeated and tails between our legs . What a smashing day!

[AUS-BNE-FISHO]

Great job Neil, shame about the sharks but good mackerel! 

[ellicat]

It was a great day for it. People would pay good money to witness the events aboard your boat today.

A couple of good ones nevertheless. Hopefully the sharks will thin out now it has started to cool off.

[Bob9863]

Sounds like the sharks need thinning out a bit. 

But a pretty exciting day all the same. 

[Kat]

Defeated?  Yeah right!

[Rebel]

Gret haul.

Well done.

[Andrew_P]

Hi Neil. So this session you landed 2 Spanish and lost about 10 others to sharks, plus hooked more and pulled or broke hooks. Assuming the ones you hooked and didn’t land due to pulled/ broken hooks lived, those 2 fish you landed resulted in the removal of 12 fish from the stock. It’s not a great success ratio is it. 
 

[Bob9863]

Not really, but the sharks would have eaten 10 fish anyway. 

You can't not fish for on species just because of the sharks, whatever species you went after would have faced the same odds regardless. 

That's the cycle of life. 

[Andrew_P]

I’m not sure that explanation stacks up Bob. You can stop fishing for a species or in an area where the sharks are thick - it’s a decision the fisher can make! And I’m sure it would be a hell of a lot harder for sharks to catch 10 Spanish swimming around that weren’t already hooked by fishers. 

We are talking about a species with serious stock issues, and in order to land 5 fish in the last 2 trip reports, Neil says he hooked more than 25; of which 20 were lost to sharks. So that means 25 fish have been taken out of the stock so Neil can have 5 in two trips. 
 

Is it just me that sees the problem here?

I want to be able to fish for Spanish into the future, but the stock won’t recover if these ratios of loss keep occurring. Think about the number of boats out chasing mackerel on your reef and multiply it up and down the coast. It’s a real issue, and fishers have the power to change their behaviour to help the stock. Failing this, we face more unpopular time closures and/or bag limit reductions, as the stock will continue to decline. 
 

It’s in our hands. 

[Bob9863]

If you can hook up on 25 in two trips, are there really as few of them as they say? 

There's heaps of trout near me, but I certainly can't hook up 25 in two outings, not even fishing every day in a week. 

Maybe heavier gear to pull them in quicker or as mentioned earlier removing a number of sharks might be a help. There's definitely an increase in shark numbers right across Australia and nobody seems to fish for or eat the smaller ones, despite being great fighters and great eating. 

Whenever there's an increase in one predator then everything else down the food chain suffers. 

We should do what we can to limit losses for no good reason, but the underlying problem is what we should address. If we don't do something about the growing shark numbers, soon all other fish species will will be next in their sights and then what will we do? 

The best solution might be commercial harvesting of sharks. 

 

 

[Andrew_P]

There have been huge restrictions on commercial shark fishing in both Qld and NSW in the last 10 years. Harvest has reduced from ~1000tonnes per year to less than 100 tonnes per year in Qld since the introduction of the S (shark) symbol. So common sense would say that shark numbers are rebuilding. 
 

Common sense would also say that because Neil hooked 25 in 2 trips that Spanish mackerel stocks are fine. This would be the case if they were evenly distributed across Qld, didn’t school to feed or spawn and were equally catchable in all conditions.
 

Unfortunately Spanish mackerel are not evenly distributed, they are a migratory neritic (inshore) species that exhibit schooling behaviour to feed and spawn, and are “catchable” due to a range of factors including food availability, water temperature, moon phase etc. This means that someone of Neil’s experience can predict where, when and in what conditions mackerel will be able to be caught, then use his skills to target, hook and land them. The scientific term for this is “hyperstability”. Skilled fishers (rec and commercial) can maintain their catch rates even when stocks are reducing. This feature is taken into account in stock assessments. The glaring issue is that commercial catch rates of mackerel in their traditional catch locations in Nth Qld are seriously reduced, and alarm bells have actually been ringing for many years. Higher Water temps and EAC strength have got Spanish mackerel being caught 100s km south of their usual range, even off Sydney this year! The fact is they are more catchable in SE Qld now than ever before. 
 

The coral trout example is interesting. I’m sure a pro trout doryman can extract up to 100 trout in a day, if the fish are there. Just because you don’t think you could doesn’t mean others can’t. 
 

I guess what I’m trying to promote is rec fishers making good decisions and being part of the solution when it comes to rebuilding depleted stocks. Neil donates his frames and sharked heads to research and is honest about how many sharks take hooked fish, which helps scientists answer questions the improve our understanding of the stock. 
 

I also promote trusting the scientists that contribute to and produce the stock assessments, as they are the experts in the trade. 

[Bob9863]

I think what matters here is he obviously loves and looks forward to the Spaniards and has put in the time to lean their habits, learn their behaviour and can get onto the schools, then even if the loss rate is so high you can't hold chasing something he loves against him. 

But what I think you really have to respect is honestly stating how many the sharks take, it would be less controversial to simply say we fished until we got two in the boat and not mentioned the losses. 

 

[Junky]

Well done Neil.

Bummer about the number board but the sharks are getting stupidly condensed. 

Up on the reef it's toxic. 

Time to start harvesting flake again. 

[Kat]

I am certainly no scientist - so don't want to interject in the debate. But I would like to know how many Spaniards commercial fisherman lose to Sharks.  From my knowledge they fish by line too?

And, @Andrew_P - Bob was talking about freshwater trout (I think..)

Cheers Kat 

[Neil Stratford]

Hi Andrew , The catch rate v sharks attacks rates you have quoted for me are floored .

I like you don’t right up a report for every time a trip out is made.

fyi , below is info on three trips made  between those two trips you have critiqued.

Trip A

6 Spanish - non lost to sharks. Back to the ramp at 830am . All fish filleted and boned out and nearly all given away to friends and family who appreciate a feed of free fresh fish . 

Trip B 

62 Bass - with a couple lost to tree branches . All bass released. 

Trip C 

1 Threadfin - released 

 Suggest you goggle up  -     Qld Spanish Mackerel bag limit 4bc utube.

It’s an interview between Neil Breen ( 4bc) and Dan McCarthy ( independent politician and Game Fisher).Very entertaining and must see watch for you.

I like my spanish fishing and wouldn’t like to see a decline in their stock. I tend to agree with Junky on the this one , the shark numbers are causing lots of issues . Eat more Flake , I’ve also heard it makes great reef fish bait when skinned .
My personal catch rates for SM in SE Qld have increased dramatically in  numbers in the last 3 years , this is definitely due to increasing my skills around fishing for them .With all respect to the anglers who  partake in fisheries surveys most simply lack the know how , where and when to catch SM and unfortunately may never have the joy of catching one . 

 

 

 

[Angry51]

Yeah, 80% of the fish is caught by 20% of the fishermen.

[Andrew_P]

4 hours ago, Neil Stratford said:

Hi Andrew , The catch rate v sharks attacks rates you have quoted for me are floored .

I like you don’t right up a report for every time a trip out is made.

fyi , below is info on three trips made  between those two trips you have critiqued.

Trip A

6 Spanish - non lost to sharks. Back to the ramp at 830am . All fish filleted and boned out and nearly all given away to friends and family who appreciate a feed of free fresh fish . 

Trip B 

62 Bass - with a couple lost to tree branches . All bass released. 

Trip C 

1 Threadfin - released 

 Suggest you goggle up  -     Qld Spanish Mackerel bag limit 4bc utube.

It’s an interview between Neil Breen ( 4bc) and Dan McCarthy ( independent politician and Game Fisher).Very entertaining and must see watch for you.

I like my spanish fishing and wouldn’t like to see a decline in their stock. I tend to agree with Junky on the this one , the shark numbers are causing lots of issues . Eat more Flake , I’ve also heard it makes great reef fish bait when skinned .
My personal catch rates for SM in SE Qld have increased dramatically in  numbers in the last 3 years , this is definitely due to increasing my skills around fishing for them .With all respect to the anglers who  partake in fisheries surveys most simply lack the know how , where and when to catch SM and unfortunately may never have the joy of catching one . 

 

 

 

Thanks Neil. I was only using the trips you reported as I am not privy to the trips you didn’t report, so my data was not flawed, but it was biased by the manner it was reported. 
 

the fact that you hooked 25 fish and landed 5 with 20 lost to sharks is not in dispute. So add the 6/6 and that is 31 fish hooked, 11 landed and 20 lost to sharks. And my comments are specifically regarding SM fishing given the management changes to rebuild the stock. 
 

whichever way you skin it, your activities are negatively impacting the stock levels at the moment, and the independently reviewed stock assessment says that it is at levels below that which can sustain itself, so management intervention (closures, bag limit change and reduction in commercial TAC) are required and the stock needs to be rebuilt. You can use all the anecdotal evidence and interviews you want, these are the best scientific estimates that we have.
 

to look at it another way. Consider if the stock assessment is correct, and the TAC reduction, closures and bag limit changes result in rebuilding the stock back to sustainable levels - is a little bit of pain spread across all sectors worth it for the improvement of the stock? Yes your friends and family might miss out on a few feeds when the boat limit drops from 6 to 2 but you can still fish for them  

suppose your anecdotal estimates that the stock is fine is reality, then the shared pain of rebuilding the stock has increased the stock to a point where a regular punter has a good chance of landing a Spanish or two floating pillies on their local reef - is that such a bad thing?

I think our mindset as rec fishers who resist management intervention when we have the proof that stocks are in trouble needs to change. Otherwise we will have more overfished species examples on top of snapper, pearlies and Spanish mackerel. 

[Andrew_P]

4 hours ago, Kat said:

I am certainly no scientist - so don't want to interject in the debate. But I would like to know how many Spaniards commercial fisherman lose to Sharks.  From my knowledge they fish by line too?

And, @Andrew_P - Bob was talking about freshwater trout (I think..)

Cheers Kat 

Whoops! When I hear trout my mind goes straight to the GBR and the blue spotted, red variety!

yes Kat the pros catch SM by line, and have experienced the same increase in shark depredation that rec fishers have. The stock assessment used a range of estimates to try to account for depredation, up to 20% (1 in 5) for the whole Qld coast, and even with this taken into account, stock level estimates were still below 20%. There is a project underway using licenced SM fishers to get a more accurate estImate of depredation rates. 
 

the thing about commercial fishers is that the Qld gov know how many fishers there are, when they fish, how many they catch and where and when they are landed. But for rec fishers this information is far more rubbery - as Neil says boat ramp surveys and rec fishing surveys (with random population sampling designs) give estimates with large variances, and are not great at capturing highly skilled, specialist fishers for hard to catch species. Which is why there is a push to improve rec fisher catch reporting in Qld. 

the 20% of people catching 80% of the fish is a stat that gets trotted out all the time (as well as variations like 10/90 and 5/95) and is really interesting. For perspective, there are ~ 3000 commercial fishing licences in Qld across all fisheries (line, net, trawl, pot, harvest) and our last best guess at number of rec fishers is around 800 000. So 20% of 800k is 160 000 rec fishers catching 80% of this fish.  but there’s only 3000 pros in the whole state. The facts are Rec fishers dominate the catch of most key species in Qld. 

Apologies I’ve taken up way too much of your time so I’ll stop now. I just hope people think about the bigger picture. 

[Angry51]

I was talking 80/20 of rec fishers not counting pro fishers.

I know a lot of fishers go fishing just to take the boat out, to have a few beers, to

get away for the day etc, etc and really dont care if they get a fish or not.

That why you have a 80/20 ratio.

[ellicat]

I thought you were talking about me, catching about 20 fish every 80 sessions. haha

[Andrew_P]

2 hours ago, Angry51 said:

I was talking 80/20 of rec fishers not counting pro fishers.

I know a lot of fishers go fishing just to take the boat out, to have a few beers, to

get away for the day etc, etc and really dont care if they get a fish or not.

That why you have a 80/20 ratio.

I was merely calculating what 20% of 800k rec fishers in Qld was and comparing that number to commercial fishers just to give some perspective. 

[Bob9863]

But do the 80k recreational fishermen go out after Spaniards? 

And of those that do how many catch? 

Commercial fishermen always harvest more then the recreational fishermen do, they don't have the bag limits, they don't have to use the same methods either. 

It's just not a fair comparison. 

 

[Andrew_P]

27 minutes ago, Bob9863 said:

But do the 80k recreational fishermen go out after Spaniards? 

And of those that do how many catch? 

Commercial fishermen always harvest more then the recreational fishermen do, they don't have the bag limits, they don't have to use the same methods either. 

It's just not a fair comparison. 

 

You are correct - it is not a fair comparison given the 800k (not 80k) overwhelmingly outnumbers the total number of commercial fishers in the whole of Qld! And SM line fishers do have the same gear rules as rec fishers - 6 hooks max at a time  

my point is that unlike commercial fishers who have restriction on licences, have to pay for quota, have a heavily reduced TAC, the 800k rec fishers in Qld can fish for mackerel if they want. Let’s assume only the top 1% that chase mackerel are anywhere as good Neil. That’s 8000 fishers having a culmulative effect on the stock up and down the coast. And then there’s the other 99% that can fish for them too, including on charter boats with experienced skippers (pretty much the same as the commercial industry reliant on harvesting fish from the stock). 
 

it’s purely a power in numbers thing. 
 

I know this information won’t change many minds, but as long as a few people consider that there is an impact of rec fishing on fisheries resources and it is in our own best interests to help rebuild stocks then we are a lot closer to reality. 

[Angry51]

" it's purely a power in numbers thing. "

Yeah numbers lie too.

You can twist the numbers any way to suit any ideal.

There's 2 sides to every argument, just depends what side you're standing on.

[Andrew_P]

5 minutes ago, Angry51 said:

" it's purely a power in numbers thing. "

Yeah numbers lie too.

You can twist the numbers any way to suit any ideal.

There's 2 sides to every argument, just depends what side you're standing on.

Show me anything in any of my posts that is twisted. which side am I on? Im a scientist and a rec fisher, so I guess I’m on the fish’s side!
 

you can’t bash the pros and not look at yourself as a rec fisher in the mirror. It doesn’t add up. 

[Angry51]

Hey Andrew, I didn't say anything you posted was twisted.

I just said numbers can work anyway anyone wants if it is so desired.

[Neil Stratford]

I’m pretty sure there’s only about 160 odd East Coast Spanish Mackerel line  licences in play in Qld.Some of these probably are not even actively being used . I’m sure these people  are being closely monitored and spend significant parts of their  days completing paper work for no pay.This is not a good way to treat people who work their guts out.

I feel for them having just lost 70% of their potential lively hoods with the stroke of a pen . No restitution given. 

The Qld Government only knows how many boats are registered in Qld , many of these are not even fishing boats.Unfortunately, the fact is they have next to no idea how many Rec Fishermen there are and how often they fish , little own what they take , where . I can’t see how they can really make any truly informed decisions apart from the fish marketed via Pro fishermen. If  shark depredation is viewed as even less fish , why too doesn’t it count as a number in the biomass , Say If 1 in 5 mackerel are being taken by sharks , would not that then mean there’s really 20% more to be added to the supposition of a 17 % biomass which could then really be 20.4% . So many things aren’t being considered , ie can a 60 y/o plus pro fishermen physically catch what he did 10 years ago and does he even want to ? 
Im happy to be regulated to 2 Spanish per boat and 1 per person in possession at any one time to improve this fishery ,  but it needs to be reviewed regularly and not let go as per the current shark issue. Those big bull sharks are awesome , but hopefully they leave us humans alone in years to come when there’s even more. I’m hearing that divers off the Sunshine Coast are being harassed by them , I’m starting to wonder how long it will be before they become part of the menu.

 

 

 

 

 

[ellicat]

An interesting blog piece -

https://wickedfishing.com.au/2016/04/25/the-great-shark-debate-an-in-depth-look-at-a-problem/

[Angry51]

Yes, that's interesting.

[Bob9863]

Definitely interesting, although I think I have a solution to the current shark VS Spanish mackerel problem here although only in a purely hypothetical/theoretical solution. 

When chasing SM and shark predation is a problem, catch one or two sharks of a legal size, kill them and let them drift off and other sharks should go after them for an easy meal. 

That helps address the shark population problem and might keep them away from a SM on the hook. 

[kmcrosby78]

On 02/04/2023 at 4:06 PM, ellicat said:

I thought you were talking about me, catching about 20 fish every 80 sessions. haha

Whereas I thought he was talking about @GregOug ........ hmmmmm ....... .

[kmcrosby78]

1 hour ago, Bob9863 said:

Definitely interesting, although I think I have a solution to the current shark VS Spanish mackerel problem here although only in a purely hypothetical/theoretical solution. 

When chasing SM and shark predation is a problem, catch one or two sharks of a legal size, kill them and let them drift off and other sharks should go after them for an easy meal. 

That helps address the shark population problem and might keep them away from a SM on the hook. 

Good solution although it would be interesting whether the angler would be able to get the hooked shark to the boat without it being bitten/eaten on the way in, as happens to mackerel.

[Bretto77]

Finlay's reef off Yepoon last year May 28. I have never seen sharks like it in my life. Yes I had lost plenty of fish to sharks in my time but never had I seen anything like Kat and I experienced that day (talking with other boats, neither had they). Moved but just ended up going home because we couldn't get a bait down without it getting nailed by a shark... And even the sharks got sharked...

[Bretto77]

2 hours ago, ellicat said:

An interesting blog piece -

https://wickedfishing.com.au/2016/04/25/the-great-shark-debate-an-in-depth-look-at-a-problem/

It's an interesting point of view and he has certainly made an effort to look at the debate from a "non institutionalised" perspective.

[Bob9863]

11 hours ago, kmcrosby78 said:

Good solution although it would be interesting whether the angler would be able to get the hooked shark to the boat without it being bitten/eaten on the way in, as happens to mackerel.

That might be even better, use heavy cable or rope attached to a floating 20lt container that has wire going down to a big bait. 

Shark takes it, fights the float and draws off the other sharks. Then rinse and repeat as needed. 

[Angry51]

That's funny you know, I've been reading a book called " Tall ships and Ten Horse Teams "

it's about a Danish boy who ran away to sea at 13 years old and 8 years later jumped ship

in Australia. This all happened in the early 1900's, he landed in West Aust. in 1920.

Anyway he mentions in the book that all over the world sharks were in plague proportions.

He was referring to fishing of the ship they had lots of trouble because of sharks.

Not important but funny I happened to be reading of at this moment.

[Old Scaley]

I have absolutely no scientific basis for this theory, so take it with a grain of salt. If fish stocks generally are in decline, it would make sense that the apex predators would decline as nature does tend to balance these things. So, if there are less sharks but more fish being lost to anglers, is it likely that sharks have been conditioned to associate boats with easy food and are following fishers around waiting for the opportunity?  I remember watching a video a long time ago from South Africa where they caught a bull shark that was hanging around the boat, tagged it and released it. Every time they fished the same area the shark would turn up  and the same shark followed the boat from spot to spot. If that theory is right, no amount of shark culling will fix the issue.

[Angry51]

Wouldn't doubt it, crocs follow boats for that reason.

[Old Scaley]

3 minutes ago, Angry51 said:

Wouldn't doubt it, crocs follow boats for that reason.

Yep, and hard to believe the NT government allows tour boats to encourage crocs to jump out of the water beside a boat to grab food. 

[Bretto77]

1 minute ago, Old Scaley said:

Yep, and hard to believe the NT government allows tour boats to encourage crocs to jump out of the water beside a boat to grab food. 

I have always had an issue with that.