victoria Help Murray cod pet at garden world, is it ok?

[Timren]

Hi All, after some insight on Murray cod & if this is any bit cruel to the fish. 
Down at garden world in Melb they have a 4-6ft tank that has about a 50cm Murray cod inside. Apparently been there for a few years. His not for sale, purely for show. Just wondering if this sort of thing is cruel or wrong to be keeping him there for no purpose. Bored out of its brain following everyone who goes past. 
is this even allowed ? Or should anything be done ? 

cheers 

[Tuna are fish]

the size of the tanks seems fine for the fish.  i think it would be the same as having one as a pet so im not sure if it would be classed as cruel.

[Another Wazza]

He’s living a luxurious life, looks to be well fed, and in good condition

[Timren]

41 minutes ago, Tuna are fish said:

the size of the tanks seems fine for the fish.  i think it would be the same as having one as a pet so im not sure if it would be classed as cruel.

Really? I guess I just feel for it being able to do nothing all day long compared to roaming the Murray

[Timren]

3 minutes ago, Another Wazza said:

He’s living a luxurious life, looks to be well fed, and in good condition

Wouldn’t say luxurious lol. It’s a big fish that should be in the wild 

[Old Scaley]

As someone who really, really, really enjoys hooking a fish in the corner of the mouth and dragging it around the ocean until it is nearly exhausted then pulling it out of the water and sticking a sharp object into its brain before whipping a couple of fillets off it and coating them in bread crumbs and having them for dinner, I think it would be hypocritical of me to comment on fish cruelty.  Maybe I have a problem?

[Timren]

51 minutes ago, Old Scaley said:

As someone who really, really, really enjoys hooking a fish in the corner of the mouth and dragging it around the ocean until it is nearly exhausted then pulling it out of the water and sticking a sharp object into its brain before whipping a couple of fillets off it and coating them in bread crumbs and having them for dinner, I think it would be hypocritical of me to comment on fish cruelty.  Maybe I have a problem?

Haha I still think that’s a better way to go then being stuck in a 5 foot tank for its years until death  probably posting in the wrong place when majority don’t have any care to a fish’s well-being

[AUS-BNE-FISHO]

Hey Tim

Well no offence, there’s a few reasons I wouldn’t worry -

A) Unless it’s against the law it doesn’t really matter (unless you’re a crazed greenie )

B) If it’s been there for that long I think it’s healthy 

C) Eventually he will die in captivity - probably was bred in captivity too, so I wouldn’t be concerned about the fishes health. Lol

Cheers Hamish

[AUS-BNE-FISHO]

47 minutes ago, Timren said:

Haha I still think that’s a better way to go then being stuck in a 5 foot tank for its years until death  probably posting in the wrong place when majority don’t have any care to a fish’s well-being

That is a bit of a generalisation- Lol. Most people will at least check that the fish is OK.

Hamish

[Another Wazza]

Hi Timren, I’m not too sure what you were hoping to achieve here?

 

5 hours ago, Timren said:

 

Hi All, after some insight on Murray cod & if this is any bit cruel to the fish. 

 

It appears your mind was already made up before posting.

2 hours ago, Timren said:

Wouldn’t say luxurious lol. It’s a big fish that should be in the wild 

Do you share the same concern for goldfish kept in bowls?, or is it only Australian natives you wish to liberate?

[Timren]

2 minutes ago, Another Wazza said:

Hi Timren, I’m not too sure what you were hoping to achieve here?

 

It appears your mind was already made up before posting.

Do you share the same concern for goldfish kept in bowls?, or is it only Australian natives you wish to liberate?

Mind def not made up, as the post reads after some insight into if this is at all cruel, I know nothing about fish and I don’t fish so hence why I’m asking here lol. I don’t like the idea of anything being contained, caught and killed humane that’s all good, the thing just looks way to big for it (to me) & I was concerned that’s it. If it’s fine & happy that’s great

[Franz]

As someone who keeps fish in aquaria, and have done for 25 years, I can tell you this is definitely NOT illegal.  This fish looks healthy, a fine specimen, and the tank also looks healthy - clear water, appropriate equipment in use, etc etc.

HOWEVER - it is common to see large fish in display aquaria like this, and they can, and do, out-grow their tanks.  If large fish are kept in a glass box that is too small, they will suffer more disease, shorter lifespan and the question of cruelty certainly does (and should) come up.

Now, how big is this tank?  If the notice about "Please do not touch the glass ..." is printed on A4 paper (my assumption), then this tank is actually 8 FT long, which is quite a decent sized tank.  (In a large warehouse space, size of tank can be deceptively large.)  The depth of the tank (water height) is 2.5 FT.  Most (but certainly not all) tanks are square if you look them on the end, so this would be 2.5 FT wide also, or about 75 cms.  In the photo you posted, it is rather hard to see, but it could potentially be wider, e.g. 3 ft or 90cms, or even more.

The criterion for tank size in this sort of situation is making sure the fish has plenty of room to turn around.  A common rule of thumb is that the width of the tank is at least twice the length of the biggest fish.  It is usually the width of the tank, rather than the length, that violates the guidelines on fishkeeping.  With my assumptions above, for a 50cms fish, this tank is on or just below the guidelines, so it is starting to outgrow this tank.  Fish grow very slowly as they age, so it could be a number of years before it becomes a serious issue.

But this example is very far from the worst I've seen, and may even still (just) meet guidelines.  Note these are guidelines for healthy fishkeeping and NOT laws.

 

[Timren]

38 minutes ago, Franz said:

As someone who keeps fish in aquaria, and have done for 25 years, I can tell you this is definitely NOT illegal.  This fish looks healthy, a fine specimen, and the tank also looks healthy - clear water, appropriate equipment in use, etc etc.

HOWEVER - it is common to see large fish in display aquaria like this, and they can, and do, out-grow their tanks.  If large fish are kept in a glass box that is too small, they will suffer more disease, shorter lifespan and the question of cruelty certainly does (and should) come up.

Now, how big is this tank?  If the notice about "Please do not touch the glass ..." is printed on A4 paper (my assumption), then this tank is actually 8 FT long, which is quite a decent sized tank.  (In a large warehouse space, size of tank can be deceptively large.)  The depth of the tank (water height) is 2.5 FT.  Most (but certainly not all) tanks are square if you look them on the end, so this would be 2.5 FT wide also, or about 75 cms.  In the photo you posted, it is rather hard to see, but it could potentially be wider, e.g. 3 ft or 90cms, or even more.

The criterion for tank size in this sort of situation is making sure the fish has plenty of room to turn around.  A common rule of thumb is that the width of the tank is at least twice the length of the biggest fish.  It is usually the width of the tank, rather than the length, that violates the guidelines on fishkeeping.  With my assumptions above, for a 50cms fish, this tank is on or just below the guidelines, so it is starting to outgrow this tank.  Fish grow very slowly as they age, so it could be a number of years before it becomes a serious issue.

But this example is very far from the worst I've seen, and may even still (just) meet guidelines.  Note these are guidelines for healthy fishkeeping and NOT laws.

 

Thank you for this! Great info 

As hard as it is to know would this fish feel imprisoned in this tank? Or be unhappy with it, it seemed highly agitated and upset when we saw it 

again no nothing about fish lol

[Junky]

If that fish knew what being in the wild was actually like I reckon it would prefer to stay in the tank. 

[Franz]

11 hours ago, Timren said:

As hard as it is to know would this fish feel imprisoned in this tank? Or be unhappy with it, it seemed highly agitated and upset when we saw it 

again no nothing about fish lol

 

Hard to know indeed.  Any glass box is nothing like the Murray River.  Then again - fish are not the brightest, in the tank they get regular meals, clean water, no predators - as Junky pointed out, it might be better off in the tank.  Certainly the life expectancy of fish in tanks exceeds that in the wild for most species.  This would be a captive bred fish, so wouldn't know any different.

They can still get agitated at times, as they do look out through the glass and notice what is going on in the wider world.  My fish go nuts when I walk into the room with their food container, especially the African cichlids - they can spot the food container from nearly 10 meters away.  At the right time of day.  I've tested this, and without the food container, they don't behave like that.

Then, there may be other things that irritate the fish - or excite the fish (can be hard to tell the difference also).  Like people banging on the glass, or dinner time approaching.  Impossible to know from a single visit, you'd need to monitor the fish behaviour over several days.

 

[Drop Bear]

Beautiful fish. Thanks for posting. I sort of have a foot in both camps. It doesn't seem like a luxurious tank but it seems happy enough and in very good condition. /opinion

Most of us have a great amount of care for fish well-being.

Just on a side note. It is interesting (I think) that captive breed fish have a very low survival rate when released into the wild. It is thought to be because they are much bolder than wild spawned fish. https://finterest.com.au/are-hatchery-bred-murray-cod-too-bold-for-the-wild/

 

[Luc53]

Captive fish bred fish especially if given hand feeding are not used to hunting for food and have a lack of fear of bigger fish.

At the Bribie Research Station, during experiments with jungle perch fingerlings, it was found they did not associate bigger fish with danger.

The researcher actually had to teach the fingerlings o be afraid of bigger fish by using pheromones from the skin of jungle perch which are released when they get injured (ie chewed on).

Even going from a dam to the river below, fish find surviving in the river harder than in the dam. Food is not as plentiful and competition is much fiercer.

 

[SuperHans]

Hi TimRen,

I'm not a crazy greenie, but I also wonder if quality of life for a fish is more than just if it looks healthy and well fed. eg some need to school to feel secure and maybe cod need snags to feel at home, or have minimum exercise needs. I know fish aren't credited with great intelligence -except for those wily urban bream, but lack of stimulation may be a problem.  

l It may be worth while looking for regulations that cover the commercial public display of native fish.

Although fish are not covered in the first link, it may be worth enquiring with them they may be able to direct you to the right place. Alternatively just contact Vic Dept of Agriculture or Vic Fisheries Authority.

https://agriculture.vic.gov.au/livestock-and-animals/animal-welfare-victoria/pocta-act-1986/victorian-codes-of-practice-for-animal-welfare/code-of-practice-for-the-public-display-of-exhibition-of-animals

https://ablis.business.gov.au/service/victoria/wildlife-displayer-licence/24353

https://vfa.vic.gov.au/

 

[GregN70]

The fish looks in good condition, and I reckon it would enjoy watching the passing traffic daily.

[Terry H]

I'm not weighing in on whether it's ethical - I have no idea.

 

Speaking of Mary's in particular, I have seen some fish reside in the same waterholes for years, some of them (holes) quite small with the fishes only ability to move up or down the creek dependent upon rainfall. The fact that they remain there despite solid creek flows would suggest that particular hole is their turf and perhaps some level of comfort...

 

Granted the smallest of holes I've seen is certainly a number of multiple times bigger than the tank, the fish have also been significantly larger models. (near metery's)

 

Helpful? probably not, but I also wouldn't be surprised if that cod was content with life.

[Angry51]

I reckon he needs some chips to go 

with him.