Out of date flares

[Line Tangler Dave]

Just wondering if you can be fined for having out-of-date flares on board, even if you have in-date ones as well????

[Brian D]

Yeap you sure do get fined -$175.00. that's more then 3 times the cost of a new set.

[rayke1938]

They will also book you if you have one unapproved life jacket on board even if you have sufficient legal ones on board. The reason being that in an emergency you could use the wrong one. If you are lucky you will get off with a warning.

Ray

[Gazza]

Your Dead right Ray

did you know that if you have a bald spare tyre they will book you but if you dont have a spare it's legal

same thing you could use it :pinch:

Gaz

[Line Tangler Dave]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Sounds like a costly mistake for those who get caught out!

The shop that sold me the flares said you are supposed to hand them in to VMO, but in the same breath, told me to keep them hidden on boat and use them as spares if needed, so I'm not quite sure how accurate their advice is.

So what is the correct way to dispose of out of date ones? Hand them in to VMO ???

[jeff f]

hand them in at any vmr or you hand them in to police stations i think

[Feral]

Most cost effective disposal method for flares is \"New years eve\"! But not on the water!

[faulked]

i deffinately think practicing with your old flares is a good idea it sucks you cant keep the old ones abord being cheap id use the old ones first

[bootyinblue]

Guys,

In next 2 days I will dig to the bottom of this (and also the bald spare tyre 'rumour') and post up some legislation to give it all a yea or a neh.

[kriso]

from what i know with the tyre issue, a spare tyre does not need to be present for the vehicle to be roadworthy, a vehicle is defected by police when breaches of roadworthy are present, as a spare tyre isnt an issue im pretty sure you cant be done for that, if so i would argue it and probably find youd be let off.

[Feral]

I've seen a roadworthy refused due to a bald spare tyre, just left it out when it went back for the second inspection.

[Oceandonkey]

new years eve sounds like the best idea.

or at your local under 9's soccer match

[kriso]

Feral wrote:

I've seen a roadworthy refused due to a bald spare tyre, just left it out when it went back for the second inspection.

if this happens to you, you are intitled to have the inspector present the regulations manual and show you where it states the matter that he is failing the roadworthy for.

[Feral]

Yeah not to worried about it these days Kriso, since I got back into car racing I am sure I could get things sorted ok

Bit like getting failed for a broken door knob! bullsh@t, but still within the letter of the law.

[Oceandonkey]

just use the ancient 'knee to groin' technique, they always come around.

[bootyinblue]

Gazza wrote:

Your Dead right Ray

did you know that if you have a bald spare tyre they will book you but if you dont have a spare it's legal

same thing you could use it :pinch:

Gaz

Ok... here is my interpretation on the above quandry.

Transport Operations (Road Use Managementâ€â€Vehicle Standards and Safety)Regulation 1999

43 Tyre tread

(1) A tyre fitted to a vehicle must not have cleats or other gripping devices that could damage road surfaces.

(2) A tyre fitted to the vehicle must have a tread pattern at least 1.5mm deep, other than at tread wear indicators, in a band that runs continuouslyâ€â€

(a) acrossâ€â€

etc etc etc

No where can I find references to spare tyres. From the above legislation it reads as what is fitted to the vehicle. Some very small vehicles do not come with a spare now, and I know some 4wd people will only carry plugs and tubes to save space when on a long trip.

If a tyre on the vehicle is bald and also the spare is bald = tickets. If a tyre on the vehicle is bald and have no spare = tickets. If a tyre on the vehicle is bald and the spare are good = change tyre on side of road. Thats just the way I work.

Still reseaching the flares!

Post edited by: bootyinblue, at: 2007/08/20 15:48

[Gazza]

The rules in vic are

if you carry a bald spare you have the intent to use it in a case of emergency (ie: flat tyre out in woop woop ) thus making your vehicle unroadworthy

Not sure up here

I know of a bloke who was pulled up carrying a bald spare and had it explained to him so he grabbed the spare outta the back of his ute and tossed it into the grass on the side of the road

The cop thought Hmm smart #ss and booked him for littering :silly:

I thought it was funny he had it coming :whistle:

Gaz

[Brian D]

Hey I have some old flares, maybe I should take em to Noosa and throw them at boat 2:evil:

[bootyinblue]

Waiting on an email back about flares which are passed there useby date.

Different States have different laws, so I can really only post information relevant to QLD legislation on here by comparing 'apples with apples'.

[kriso]

Feral wrote:

Yeah not to worried about it these days Kriso, since I got back into car racing I am sure I could get things sorted ok

Bit like getting failed for a broken door knob! bullsh@t, but still within the letter of the law.

you race or just into the scene? what type of racing?

[Fisher_90]

So are you guys saying we cant carry out of date flares just as backups for ones that are in date?

That sounds weird. We have always carried the old flares as spares. Im waiting to here what booty's email says.

[rayke1938]

Question was asked at a seminar I attended last year and the word was if you carry them dont show them. If they dont know you have them on board they cant do anything about it. But they did strongly advise against carrying them as you could pick them up and attempt to use them in an emergency and if they malfunctioned and you cant get to the fresh ones you are up the creek.

Ray

[bootyinblue]

Still waiting on a return email. I originally thought that once expired they might come under the Explosives Regs, but all my searching specifically excludes them from that legislation.

Guess its just a waiting game. But outta sight, outta mind if you get my drift...

[gelsec]

Advise from the Chief Inspector of Explosives Qld NRM. Marine distress flares are 'explosives' under the Qld Explosives Act 1999 and Explosives Regulation 2003. While the 'Act' doesn't necessarily prevent distress flares outside their shelf-life being kept or used in boats for emergency situations, they may become unsafe as they deteriorate and should be handed in for safe disposal.

Maritime Safety Qld's position is that flares be disposed of in the approved way as soon as possible after they expire.

The Australian Maritime Safety Authority expects all equipment provided onboard to be valid and fit for purpose, even if the equipment is additional to the minimum statutory requirements.

The National Marine Safety Council's agreed standard for rec boat safety equipment states, where equipment carries a manufacturers expiry date, the equipment shall not exceed the prescribed expiry date.

rayke1938 made the most pertinent note, if you only have once opportunity to grab a flare you want it to be one in the best condition, not one that may be years old.

Boating & Fisheries Patrol have fined boaties recently for carrying expired flares in addition to in-date ones, and depending on the circumstances you could be breaching the General Safety Obligation (MSQ Regs).

Pains Wessex Australia recommend the replacement of all time expired flares.

You can also void insurance policies if carrying expired flares.

If out-of-date flares can be carried why not other out-of-date equipment like EPIRBs etc. It's an outdated (pardon the pun)practice.

cheers

Steve

Post edited by: gelsec, at: 2007/08/24 21:51

[bootyinblue]

Ok I am still digging with this one. Explosives Act 1999 does not mention 'distress signals' and being an Act covers the framework of the legislation as in powers and responsibilties and not descriptions of items covered etc. The Explosives Regs 2003 refers to 'distress signals' as a schedule 4 explosive and as classed, there is no need for licensing and limited storage requirements. Still yet to find a section of legislation indicating it is an offence to store expired flares.

[gelsec]

Qld NRM; old flares may not be used for other than emergency situations on water, may not be possessed or used in public places (Explosives Act 1999).

Probably won't see many Mines Inspectors checking boats for expired flares, but we will find Qld B&F Patrol checking and fining people for breaches.They have been issuing fines and will continue to if you carry old flares alongside in-date ones.

Aside from the possible fines,I don't want to blow my insurance because of a $50 packet of flares.

Steve

[ellicat]

Gelsec, Do you know some of the guys that have been booked/fined ?

If so, what did the ticket say ?

The answer should clarify it all.

[bootyinblue]

Just sent Steve a PM asking him for the section number under the Act.

Seems a bit of a role reversal me trying to 'get people off', but the legislation is there for all to share...

[bootyinblue]

gelsec wrote:

Qld NRM; old flares may not be used for other than emergency situations on water, may not be possessed or used in public places (Explosives Act 1999).

Probably won't see many Mines Inspectors checking boats for expired flares, but we will find Qld B&F Patrol checking and fining people for breaches.They have been issuing fines and will continue to if you carry old flares alongside in-date ones.

Steve

Think we can put this one to bed as an urban myth too. Got a reply from Gelsec to say he hasnt been fined, nor knows of people personally who have, but rather has heard that people have been done.

I cant find any legislation that says its an offence. The quoted bit above does not come from the Explosives Act and the closest thing I can find is contained in the Explosives Regs 2003 Section 46 which states

46 Possession and initiation of particular explosives in public places prohibited

(1) A person must not, unless the person is authorised to do so under the Act or has a reasonable excuse, possess an explosive, other than an unrestricted firework, in a public place.

Maximum penaltyâ€â€50 penalty units.

(2) A person must not, unless the person is authorised to do so under the Act or has a reasonable excuse, initiate an explosive, other than an unrestricted firework, in a public place.

Maximum penaltyâ€â€200 penalty units.

'This is just my interpretation and findings and does not constitute legal advice in any way shape or form'

[Cowfish13]

In the explosives Regs 2003 Section 46 in number (2), it says that a peron must not initiate an explosive unless they are authorised or have a reasonable excuse. I think that New Year is a reasonable excuse .

[bootyinblue]

bootyinblue wrote:

Still waiting on a return email. I originally thought that once expired they might come under the Explosives Regs, but all my searching specifically excludes them from that legislation.

Guess its just a waiting game. But outta sight, outta mind if you get my drift...

Ok its back, the long awaited email! True to my word I said I would get to the bottom of it and I have. I will cut and paste the email, so sorry if the post gets a bit long but in short is as follows. There is lots of suggestions, advises, recommendations etc. but not offences other than incorrect disposal at a rubbish tip or somewhere. Still interested to see a ticket issued for any offence associated with flares.

*******************************************************

For your information below is advice provided by one our policy areas on a

previous query about expired flares:

\"There is no obligation in Queensland's marine safety legislation regarding

the disposal of out of date equipment. However, the following extract from

AS 2092 recommends careful disposal with referral to the local Explosives

Inspection Authority or Marine Authority:

AS 2092â€â€Â2004 Pyrotechnic marine distress flares and signals for pleasure

craft Appendix A (Informative), recommends:

EXPECTED LIFE

Flares and signals should be changed at their expiry date, or more often if

required by Statutory Authorities, or if showing signs of deterioration.

DISPOSAL OF TIME EXPIRED STORES

Time expired flares and signals need to be disposed of carefully and

enquiries in this regard should be referred to the local Explosives

Inspection Authority or Marine Authority.

The following extract from a brochure published by the Department of

Natural Resources and Mines indicates that time expired pyrotechnic devices

are considered dangerous by that department and their appropriate disposal

is recommended:

Dispose of Old Marine Flares and Buoys Appropriately

Keeping old flares is dangerous and it is an offence to dispose of any form

of explosives at rubbish tips or waste transfer stations.\"

Maritime Safety Queensland advises people with expired flares are advised

that they can hand them in at one flare disposal locations. These can be

found on our website under the Safety, Flare disposal locations link (try

this link http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Home/Safety/Flare_disposal_locations).

Hope this information helps.

[rayke1938]

Bugga I was looking forward to seeing the cleanaway truck going up in a cloud of orange smoke.

Post edited by: rayke1938, at: 2007/08/30 19:06

[Fisher_90]

But are we allowed to keep old flares onboard our boats?

[bootyinblue]

I am not going to say you can or cant, what I have posted though shows there only to be an offence for improper disposal of flares.

[Fisher_90]

Ok thanks.

[Feral]

Fisher_90 wrote:

But are we allowed to keep old flares onboard our boats?

I would not risk it.

1. They may fine you, (you may be in the right, but do you want to spend the court time proving it?)

2. If your injured and your deckie grabs the wrong ones and they dont work, and the deckie does not know there are in date ones on board, your stuffed!

3. If you think you need more than 1 set of flares, I would not be relying on dodgy ones.