Asylum seeker boats..... Support or send back?

[ahmedy14]

An interesting show that came on SBS last year called "Go Back To Where You Came From". Quite an eye opener actually. I'm sure many know about this already as it was quite popular. Can watch all the episodes free on the SBS website.

/>http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/goback/tab-listings/page/i/1/h/About/

[woody1]

These people are so desperate to flee their countries they travel for months, and load their children onto un-seaworthy boats, not because they are bad people, but because it is safer than the alternative. They are escaping some of the most atrocious political situations in the world, many have been locked up for months in refugee camps for years where rape and murder happens daily

If you believe otherwise, you are obviously getting your information from 'reputable' sources like Today Tonight and politicians with personal agendas.

I say let them in, but make sure they know they are Australian now. they can keep their own culture, but don't let it disrupt our way of life! If this happens I don't see a problem with them living here

[dave45]

Boat People’s Poem…

Written by some Aussie bogan who despises refugees?

[dave45]

These people are so desperate to flee their countries they travel for months, and load their children onto un-seaworthy boats, not because they are bad people, but because it is safer than the alternative. They are escaping some of the most atrocious political situations in the world, many have been locked up for months in refugee camps for years where rape and murder happens daily

If you believe otherwise, you are obviously getting your information from 'reputable' sources like Today Tonight and politicians with personal agendas.

I say let them in, but make sure they know they are Australian now. they can keep their own culture, but don't let it disrupt our way of life! If this happens I don't see a problem with them living here

Agree 100% and would go one step further and say instead of them staying in Sydney, Melbourne , Brisbane etc encourage them to rural areas where towns are shrinking for a 4 year minimum where farmers and small business are often desperate for workers and pump some life back into the regional areas.

This will take pressure off of the already tight accommodation ,hospital , school situations in the cities.

[Bommie]

this belongs on triple j

[rayke1938]

I think that we all need to step back and have a good think where our families came from.

Apart from the first nation people we are all descended from convicts or migrants / refugees.

The convicts had no choice.

The migrants came to better themselves or escape oppression either political or religious.

After the second world war we had a flood of refugees from war torn Europe and also a vast number of $10 migrants.

Providing that you were of white ethnic origin ( Who remembers the white Australia Policy ?)you were made welcome.

All of these people have melded into our culture and brought some of their own culture into our daily lives.

Whatever happened to the old Aussie adage of FAIR GO?

Cheers

Ray

[shortie]

Charity begins at home.

We have enough pain and suffering in this country and people we should help without taking on the rest of the worlds problems.

Unfortunatelly there are to many bleeding hearts around. They pick Every cause as their champion cause. But do they actually do anything about it or do they sit at there computers whinge and bitch about the injustices and really do nothing.

If you feel strongly about these causes get off your butts and do something instead of acting all caring and ritiuos on your computer and doing fluff all.

Weather it be Turtles and Balloons, Ciggy butts thown out on the street, Illegal Boat people if you feel strongly enough about it do something about it other than bitching a people on the net that dont really give a shoot.

[ellicat]

I think that we all need to step back and have a good think where our families came from.

Apart from the first nation people we are all descended from convicts or migrants / refugees.

The convicts had no choice.

The migrants came to better themselves or escape oppression either political or religious.

After the second world war we had a flood of refugees from war torn Europe and also a vast number of $10 migrants.

Providing that you were of white ethnic origin ( Who remembers the white Australia Policy ?)you were made welcome.

All of these people have melded into our culture and brought some of their own culture into our daily lives.

Whatever happened to the old Aussie adage of FAIR GO?

Cheers

Ray

I think you're missing the point of the thread Ray, which is about when should the boats be turned back.

I'm certainly no racist but have a position on that question that differs from others. I have no problem welcoming refugees. I have issue with the method the current people smuggler passengers take though.

In reality the "turning the boats around" question is a very minor side issue in the overall debate made popular under Gillards incompetent rule as a distraction.

From 2001 to 2008 (when they mucked things up) there was only 1 or 3 boats 'turned back'. Big Deal !

As an aside -

I don't have issue with anybody's race, but I will absolutely not have 'political correctness' get in the way of enjoying a good racist joke....

[Bommie]

[rayke1938]

Charity begins at home.

We have enough pain and suffering in this country and people we should help without taking on the rest of the worlds problems.

Unfortunatelly there are to many bleeding hearts around. They pick Every cause as their champion cause. But do they actually do anything about it or do they sit at there computers whinge and bitch about the injustices and really do nothing.

If you feel strongly about these causes get off your butts and do something instead of acting all caring and ritiuos on your computer and doing fluff all.

Weather it be Turtles and Balloons, Ciggy butts thown out on the street, Illegal Boat people if you feel strongly enough about it do something about it other than bitching a people on the net that dont really give a shoot.

Which is why i get involved and write to politicians and other government bodies as well as posting on this site.

Cheers

Ray

[Do$tylz]

I think that we all need to step back and have a good think where our families came from.

Apart from the first nation people we are all descended from convicts or migrants / refugees.

The convicts had no choice.

The migrants came to better themselves or escape oppression either political or religious.

After the second world war we had a flood of refugees from- war torn Europe and also a vast number of $10 migrants.

Providing that you were of white ethnic origin ( Who remembers the white Australia Policy ?)you were made welcome.

All of these people have melded into our culture and brought some of their own culture into our daily lives.

Whatever happened to the old Aussie adage of FAIR GO?

Cheers

Ray

I think you're missing the point of the thread Ray, which is about when should the boats be turned back.

Brian I think most people are missing the point of the opening thread.

The question of "when to turn back boats" I think it is a question that incites the uneducated today tonight ignorance. that's just asking people to arc up.

The better question is how do we control the boats leaving?

But then again...is that really the problem?

Where's fishingnuts can of worms?

Guys this is a topic close to my heart as it directly would have impacted my family and my life. I'm not saying this for sympathy but more for you to consider your positions and thoughts and why. What my parents had to go through to leave their original homeland I would never wish on anyone.

My family and many others who came in as "refugees" contribute more to australia than many so called "australians". I was n

[Eug]

Also I can relate to Henry's comments as I know families who've gone through the same thing and are now sending their kids through school, running their own business, employing both Australians and non-Australians as well as paying an exorbitant amount of tax which ties in to Booty's other thread "Basics card". It's all got to start somewhere. :sick:

At the end of the day as long as you help contribute to the economy, work hard and abide by the rules I don't care where you're from. There are free loaders from both sides of the fence.

If Booty spent more time putting his signs up properly we can be rid of these topics.

[Dusky]

Getting back to the original thread topic..Support or send back??

It seems to me that the foriegn governments from whence the boats came are turning a blind eye to the boats leaving in the first place in the hope that these unfortunate people become someone else's problem??

Once the boat has left and is at sea in international waters and puts out a distress call and one of our boats is in the area we are bound by the law of the sea to respond, once we respond it then becomes our problem. The boat once found should be checked to see if it seaworthy enough to turn around, all the people checked on board for a legitimate refugee status, then boat or people if it is deemed by the captain of the rescue vessel be taken to a safe port, wether it be Australia or from where it came from.

As has been stated time and time again throughout this thread, these are people fleeing from their countries out of desperation for a better life and away from persecution and even death in some cases, so I feel we should support these people when support is found to be needed.

Process all the peoples claims for asylum in a timely manner,(not take months or years to process ) as Ray said , give them a fair go !!

Our government needs to take a firm stand with the foriegn governments and get them to do more to prevent the boats leaving in the first place, not sit back and fear that they may offend them , possibly losing trade from that country.

I'm sure if the tables were turned and we were fleeing persecution from our government and countrymen that we would be welcomed and treated fairly by them??

So in finishing my soap box rant, help refugees when needed, send back the boat people smugglers, make sure their governments do something about it !!

Cheers.

[madmullet]

1. what would they do if we did it to them

2. i had a philipino man living with me for 2 yrs, great guy. he was hear on a working visa, barely missed a day of work. now he applied for citizenship, got denied. he is a qualifed boiler maker and had great skills and can contribute good things to this country, now why should he get denied and these boat people be allow to stay. ???????????

3. instead of puting all this noney into trying to work out how to hous them ect, put it into something constructive that will benifit australians.

4. i am all for a multi culture country, but do it legally.

if they can affort to make the jurney threw other countries and over so many miles, they have got some good money behind them.

5. what skills can they contribute to this country

6.i know they are fleeing bad conditions, but try and put that $$$$$$$$$ you use to try and come into our country eligaly and try and do it legally.

i could rant on this subject for hrs....

so this is what i think...

1. skilled/legal workers

2. eligal boat turned around and escorted back

[Do$tylz]

Kurt - sometimes it's not that easy.

Just because you have the money, doesn't mean you can spend it on legal ways to come here. It's easy for us to think that all government bodies are like ours here where everything is above board.

Also - again.. sensationalist claims made by the likes of our beloved 6:30pm shows tells us that everyone has paid 5-10k to come here. Do you really believe by looking at those people that they all had 5-10k to cough up?

skilled workers? yeah I can see your point, but who would do cleaning, cab driving, 7-eleven work? The average joe here doesn't want to do it because it's not high paying enough or seen as a low job. Un-skilled workers are not completely useless (i know you weren't saying that though).

Shortie - for a man that I know to be one of the most generous and heart filled, I am sometimes surprised by your take on this stuff. Is it a case of out of sight out of mind? is it the distance that they are from that makes you feel differently than the way you would with your immediate suburban neighbour? or is it just the frustration that it looks like we keep getting lumped with other peoples problems as a nation and we keep helping? or the concern that too many will change our way of life?

[Funfisher]

Personaly i support turning the boats around and sending them back.. in the long run less boats will attempt the journey and less casualtys will happen at sea. I do think if we are to do this though we should well and truely open up the legal channels and support and welcome those who are patiantly waiting there turn.. not punish them and reward those who are breaking our laws before even reaching our soil.

[tugger]

I'll ask a question of everyone who is in favour of turning the boats around, How do you interfear with these boats in international waters and "turn them around" and escort them back to a foreign port?

These smuglers simply start to intentionally sink the boat as the australian ship approaches or even before that in some cases and send out a distress signal. Unless you think we could rewrite international law at sea some people here are very narrow minded

[Funfisher]

I am unsure of the technical details but the Navy seemed to manage the procces just fine under the Howard government... How many refugees drowned during this period? how many are drowning each year now?

[planetfonz]

I read this article about the HMAS Melbourne a few weeks ago. very good article and i urge some of you to put down your picture magazines, ignore your beer for a moment, have a read and let it sink in
/>http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/the-luckiest-refugees/

[bootyinblue]

Let's not cloud the issue by including legitimate refugees and £10 Poms of which both my parents were.

These so called asylum seekers are just taking up for a ride whether they pay money to be snuggled or just devise a plan themselves.

International law in simple terms states its an offence for the master of a vessel once being notified of a ship in distress not to take reasonable action where practical.

There is nothing there to say you can't scoop them out of the water and take them back to the shore they came from ie the 51nm boat or bringing them back here for a shower, meal, clothes and then loaded on a plane and returned.

The message needs to be sent that Australia will not accept queue jumpers.

[Do$tylz]

^^ all good with that approach Greg. Save them, send them home. If that is our stance it will stop more attempting it that way.

It's the yobbos that make the calls of "shoot them/drown them/leave them to die" that drag this whole thing into the trenches.

Nab the masterminds that live in Australia that are helping orchestrate it, find them guilty and then send them back.

[tugger]

A bit of history

Vietnamese Boat People

The ‘Boat People of Vietnam’ seemed to encapsulate all the suffering Vietnam had suffered from 1965 to 1975. Despite the end of the Vietnam War, tragedy for the people of Vietnam continued into 1978-79. The term ‘Boat People’ not only applies to the refugees who fled Vietnam but also to the people of Cambodia and Laos who did the same but tend to come under the same umbrella term. The term ‘Vietnamese Boat People’ tends to be associated with only those in the former South who fled the new Communist government. However, people in what was North Vietnam who had an ethnic Chinese background fled to Hong Kong at the same time fearing some form of retribution from the government in Hanoi.

In late 1978, Indo-China degenerated into wholesale confrontation and war between Vietnam and Kampuchea (Cambodia) and China. In December 1978, Vietnam attacked Kampuchea while in February 1979, Vietnam attacked Chinese forces in the north. These two conflicts produced a huge number of refugees

Many in what was South Vietnam feared the rule of their communist masters from what had been North Vietnam. Despite the creation of a united Republic of Vietnam in 1975, many in the South feared retribution once it was found out that they had fought against the North during the actual war. The rule exerted in Ho Chi Minh City (formally Saigon) was repressive as this was seen as a bastion of ‘Americanisation’. Traditional freedoms were few. It has been estimated that 65,000 Vietnamese were executed after the end of the war with 1 million being sent to prison/re-education camps where an estimated 165,000 died.

Many took the drastic decision to leave the country – an illegal act under the communis government. As an air flight out of Vietnam was out of the question, many took to makeshift boats in an effort to flee to start a new life elsewhere. Alternately, fishing boats were utilised. While perfectly safe for near-shore fishing, they were not built for the open waters. This was coupled with the fact that they were usually chronically overcrowded, thus making any journey into the open seas potentially highly dangerous.

No one can be sure how many people took the decision to flee, nor are there any definitive casualty figures. However, the number who attempted to flee has been put as high as 1.5 million. Estimates for deaths vary from 50,000 to 200,000 (Australian Immigration Ministry). The primary cause of death was drowning though many refugees were attacked by pirates and murdered or sold into slavery and prostitution. Some countries in the region, such as Malaya, turned the boat people away even if they did manage to land. Boats carrying the refugees were deliberately sunk offshore by those in them to stop the authorities towing them back out to sea. Many of these refugees ended up settling in the United States and Europe. The United States accepted 823,000 refugees; Britain accepted 19,000; France accepted 96,000; Australia and Canada accepted 137,000 each.

So it has all happened before and only now do we see it again because of war in Iraq and Afganastan which begun when the coalition of the willing which Australia was a part of invaded these 2 countries which now we see the inocent in these countries blown up as soft targets or there young boys taken to fight against their will.

Why we are only now seeing droves of people making their way by boat is it must have taken them years to reach indonesia after crossing many borders and being detained numerous times in this process. The Howard government would have had the same problem if they were in power any longer it was just a matter of time. All of the refugees that were taken to Naru under Howards solution all managed to be settled in Australia anyway so it was no better than what is happening now.

Human misery is what drives these people to take on this dangerous journey and i wonder how many people who want to turn these people away also supported our govermentrs decision to invade these countries in the first place and create it all

[Funfisher]

Good call Booty that would be the best option.

[Do$tylz]

I read this article about the HMAS Melbourne a few weeks ago. very good article and i urge some of you to put down your picture magazines, ignore your beer for a moment, have a read and let it sink in
/>http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/the-luckiest-refugees/

Just quickly skimmed over this (will read in more detail a bit later) but from what I've read, their experience at sea is what a lot of people experienced back then. The stories of those people that made that trip are amazing and I'm fortunate enough that my parents are one of the lucky ones to have made it. Many never did.

[shortie]

Shortie - for a man that I know to be one of the most generous and heart filled, I am sometimes surprised by your take on this stuff. Is it a case of out of sight out of mind? is it the distance that they are from that makes you feel differently than the way you would with your immediate suburban neighbour? or is it just the frustration that it looks like we keep getting lumped with other peoples problems as a nation and we keep helping? or the concern that too many will change our way of life?

Henry ITs a simple as "Its not a cause i support"

When I do get behind a cause I put my Money, my time, and any resource i have a my disposal to help and also my Heart.

I see suffering in Australia. I see children being born addicted to drugs by addict parents. I see child abuse, spouse abuse, people going hungry, disease, medical problems. There are so many instances within my own country that can use help. I can also see the reason these illegal regugees flee there own countries and i also feel for them. BUT

I help my own First. Unlike some people on here that have a whinge about every seemingly good cause going on ,I get off my ass and actually do my bit where I can.

They word hypocrit comes to mind regarding many members on here and their causes

Lets save the planet but lets drive big boats with big horsepower motors. (Just another example of the hypocrasy shown on here)

Australia and Australians cant fix every problem or injustice done in this world.

Lets do work and get it right in our own backyard first before we start helping outside our own country.

But hey if you want that warm fuzzy feeling that you guys seem get from supporting every cause going by typing a few words in an internet forum and doing nothing more good luck to you.

[Eug]

I can achieve the same thing by "liking" your post.

[jeff f]

well put shortie

[Do$tylz]

Shortie - for a man that I know to be one of the most generous and heart filled, I am sometimes surprised by your take on this stuff. Is it a case of out of sight out of mind? is it the distance that they are from that makes you feel differently than the way you would with your immediate suburban neighbour? or is it just the frustration that it looks like we keep getting lumped with other peoples problems as a nation and we keep helping? or the concern that too many will change our way of life?

Henry ITs a simple as "Its not a cause i support"

When I do get behind a cause I put my Money, my time, and any resource i have a my disposal to help and also my Heart.

I see suffering in Australia. I see children being born addicted to drugs by addict parents. I see child abuse, spouse abuse, people going hungry, disease, medical problems. There are so many instances within my own country that can use help. I can also see the reason these illegal regugees flee there own countries and i also feel for them. BUT

I help my own First. Unlike some people on here that have a whinge about every seemingly good cause going on ,I get off my ass and actually do my bit where I can.

They word hypocrit comes to mind regarding many members on here and their causes

Lets save the planet but lets drive big boats with big horsepower motors. (Just another example of the hypocrasy shown on here)

Australia and Australians cant fix every problem or injustice done in this world.

Lets do work and get it right in our own backyard first before we start helping outside our own country.

But hey if you want that warm fuzzy feeling that you guys seem get from supporting every cause going by typing a few words in an internet forum and doing nothing more good luck to you.

There you go I wasn't having a dig at you mate (i'm sure you know that). Just interested to know your train of thought. Sometimes your short(ie) replies leave out some info that helps me understand.

I can understand and see your point of view

[tiotony]

I've spent a lot of my working life on the 'fence' (Ashmore reef etc), although I'm not in uniform anymore so don't do that now I'm a civvy. All I can say is I would like to see the actual figures released to the public, exactly how many 'supposed' asylum seekers are legitimate refugees as compared to those better described as 'economic migrants'. Its very easy to arrive with no identifying documents and claim to be a refugee. Some are legitimate refugees, a lot aren't, and everybody knows that. This is why processing and time in detention can drag on for so long; as an example someone who claims to be from Afganistan yet have no documents to prove this, obviously cannot speak Afgani, do not look Afgani, yet continue to insist they are Afgani and refuse to admit what country they are really from.

Its a difficult situation, we are morally obliged to take in refugees and so we should I think, yet have to sort through all the people scamming the migration system.

[regulated]

New AFO category suggestion, "Booty's can of worms". Been coming up with some good ones recently.

If we provide aid for a boat we may be able to help 50-100 people. If we provide aid via UN and other correct channels we can help a whole country.

I have seen both sides of the fence in some places. After talking to the locals we had made friends with most did want to move to Australia or the US but the hope and appreciation in there eyes when we supported them and assisted in the improvement of their country/government/election/etc really gave them something to smile about, a chance for a future in their own country with their family. They were extremley appreciative of everything we did and did tell us on many occasions. I hope it is still getting better for them now.

I do not think that lucky countries can simply take everyone from war torn countries. The original problems may follow.

[ipk18]

I like Clive Palmers idea make them fly in and process them at the airport and if they are seen as none refugees they get sent out on the next plane. Or if they get here they should be locked up in a detention center and only released when they can speak basic English, they should have culture traning,have had Heath checks, and be place in some sort of job like work for the dole and should in no way get any more money than a Australian family.

[grander]

Not sure if it's been said or not but how many countries do these people go through to get to the boats that bring them here?

5? 6? 7? More?

[rayke1938]

I read this article about the HMAS Melbourne a few weeks ago. very good article and i urge some of you to put down your picture magazines, ignore your beer for a moment, have a read and let it sink in
/>http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/the-luckiest-refugees/

Makes you proud to be an aussie.

Cheers

Ray

[rayke1938]

Not sure if it's been said or not but how many countries do these people go through to get to the boats that bring them here?

5? 6? 7? More?

Normal route is for the people smugglers to fly them into Jakata airport and then transported to the different villages where the boats depart from.

Very strange that I could not arrive there without a valid passport or return ticket.

Could there possibly be a small bit of corruption in Indonesia coupled with the fact that why should we be the bad guys when we can offload it onto Australia.

Cheers

Ray

[Funfisher]

Not sure if it's been said or not but how many countries do these people go through to get to the boats that bring them here?

5? 6? 7? More?

Normal route is for the people smugglers to fly them into Jakata airport and then transported to the different villages where the boats depart from.

Very strange that I could not arrive there without a valid passport or return ticket.

Could there possibly be a small bit of corruption in Indonesia coupled with the fact that why should we be the bad guys when we can offload it onto Australia.

Cheers

Ray

Or they may even arrive in Jakata with a valid passport and return ticket which is ditched before boarding the boats to make the identity proccess even harder..

[rayke1938]

Pickerings view.

[ellicat]

On tugger's political view - I disagree. Even the ALP now admits their policy failed due to pull factors. The timing of the 'wars' shows there were just as many 'push' factors during the good old days as there were/are under Rudd/Gillard.

Of the people that went to Naru, 95% ended up be resettled in either Australia, New Zealand or Canada.

That left 5% that were denied access! I suggest the 5% that were returned made it a valuable and worthwhile exercise to 'process' these people off-shore. Offshore processing makes it far far easier to return people from where to came if they do not fit the requisite profile.

[sammysnapper]

Not sure if it's been said or not but how many countries do these people go through to get to the boats that bring them here?

5? 6? 7? More?

Normal route is for the people smugglers to fly them into Jakata airport and then transported to the different villages where the boats depart from.

Very strange that I could not arrive there without a valid passport or return ticket.

Could there possibly be a small bit of corruption in Indonesia coupled with the fact that why should we be the bad guys when we can offload it onto Australia.

Cheers

Ray

Ray has hit it on the head right here. Australia as a country can do nothing to stop this until the other countries (indo and the like) assist us to stop what is happening. I bet there is alot of corruption in the ports of these countries assisting these boats to get out of there ports. All in all it isnt an australian problem it is a problem for the whole asia pacific to stop.

Afghanistan isnt a bad country, The people mostly go about there everyday life unchallenged. There is more often than not a warning of when a firefight is going to occur so they leave and come back when it is over. Until the reports of the good we do there are reported in the news it will always be a sour war.

There are alot of bludgers around that could be working in those 7elevens and taxis and stuff i am shore they would be happy to do it if there cheqs got stopped.

just my opinions tho

[hulk]

Personally, the correct channel should be taken and any other channel should be treated as non genuine. My great grandmother came here as a genuine refugee when she fleed Russian occupied territory and escaped on a train that was being bombed.She then lived in war camps in Europe with her 3 young kids and had a choice of coming to Aus or USA. She obviously chose Aus.She then had to work her arse off with continual gibes due to language barriers however by the time her life passed, she had seen her kids through University, had 7 grandkids and umpteen great grandkids.

The point I make too is SHE WORKED HER ARSE OFF, was given the bare essentials unlike some of these today whose essential grocery items include money for cigarettes etc.

Maybe the answer is not straight forward I don't know.We do need to look after our own too but in saying this have a look around and everywhere you look these days there are people in the community who have all the tools at their disposal yet don't work or have morphed into the rotten teeth crackpots who would be better off being euthanised instead of draining resources.

I do not begrudge those choosing Australia to better their lives and those of their families but to come and then not contribute to the improvement of society is unacceptable.

I read a couple of months ago where a young teenager from Africa was charged for mugging people at fairfield and stabbing a bloke with scissors. His defence counsel argued the behaviour was directly due to hardships he had seen back home in the homeland however the defence counsel swept over the fact that this bloke was part of a gang of fellow homelanders. I look at this as a case of biting the hands that feed you.

I believe that these people who come here and commit crimes should be then deported because they truly don't appreciate the opportunity they were given.

[Bennno]

I refuse to see why we should allow so many unknown people into a country when we wouldn't be allowed into theirs in the same instance. Why are we such a bunch of socialists with such superior morals while we have a massive suicide problem and treat our own mentally ill people so badly.

We are heading to a race that isn't even a race. When can we actually HAVE an identity? Or is our identity not to have one and just keep pulling the moral high-ground on each other and play tall poppy all our lives?

I don't like where Australia is heading and no, I'm not going to 'get out'. Political debate needs to start considering both sides and stop polarising and stifling proper conversation and debate. The nanny rules need to stop, we aren't even allowed to drink in public, they want to confiscate cars and destroy them, so many rules. What happened to growing up? Natural selection? Truth is most don't get a chance to become adults (seriously, look at how some people talk to each other and their families, what are manners anyway?) while they are treating each other like children. We just want a gene pool of the worst genetics, and spare me the 'convict' debate.

Also in *my* opinion these threads don't belong on a fishing forum, a political forum might be a better place. But that is just me 2c